Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

[fphredd]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Hi Brendan,

Remember the MF Digital Ripstation you provided drivers for? Well, after a brief hiatus, been ripping away happily and suddenly having issues with pickups from the tray post rip. Seems to only be happening on the left tray, if that means anything. Can't predict when, but generally after somewhere btw 10-30 discs, it tries to pick up twice, then ends the batch with a COM error. Any idea what would cause this issue, and do you have any suggestions????

Thanks for any help!

[dbuser]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

I just downloaded dbpoweramp with batch ripper and media changer support, unable to make it work with my sony vaio media changer, am I missing something (beside IQ!), thanks!
dbuser

[PlanetMongo]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

PlanetMongo -
PS - Also, a clarification: when it comes to disc (and tape) automation, the term "changer" is used to apply to devices where every media is individually addressible (e.g. your plasmon devices or the sony xl1b units can be told to get the disc in position 132...) whereas "robot" is somewhat less clearly defined, but I find it is usually applied to devices that handle discs in bulk (e.g. stacks or spindles) where each disc is not individually accessible, but rather accessed from the top (or bottom) of a stack.

That's interesting. They call ours "robots" in the service agreements, but every disc is accessible. Basically, it scans everything and mounts each disc as a directory in, say, Z:\ (user selectable). So if I have 100 discs in the changers, I have 100 directories in Z. If I browse to a specific disc in Explorer, the mechanism will pull the disc and load it into one of the drives for access, which a little 'downtime' for the swap-read. I suppose this would be the issue with bulk stacks and how that gets managed: how does the system know what the disc is (I'm guessing this is where the AMG, etc comes in) and how would I reassign naming conventions on the fly... This really could be something I can't get around this way... It's a nice thought, though.

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

PlanetMongo -

I think you missed my initial point which was to skip using changers and robots temporarily and try your hand at setting up the batch ripper and using it. That is, install dbpoweramp reference as well as the batch ripper, with the batch ripper configured to use multiple optical drives (using the default "Auto Eject - Manual Load" driver which does not require automation hardware) such as built-in or external (e.g. USB) optical drives.

Can this setup be tweaked to do all of the non-physical-automation tasks you need? If so, then pursue finding the automation hardware (changers or robots) that will be work for your workloads with this software. If not, then there's no point in pursuing dbpoweramp as a potential direction.

-brendan

PS - Also, a clarification: when it comes to disc (and tape) automation, the term "changer" is used to apply to devices where every media is individually addressible (e.g. your plasmon devices or the sony xl1b units can be told to get the disc in position 132...) whereas "robot" is somewhat less clearly defined, but I find it is usually applied to devices that handle discs in bulk (e.g. stacks or spindles) where each disc is not individually accessible, but rather accessed from the top (or bottom) of a stack.

[PlanetMongo]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Rather than try to look at what you do now in detail, I'll take a simplistic approach with the question: can the Batch Ripper, with one or more non-automated optical drive(s) (built-in or external - we're ignoring the disc manual loading labor for now), give you the end results you want without per-disc manual intervention at the keyboard?

No idea, honestly. Batch Ripper doesn't appear to be supported using the Plasmons, but they're dead in the water at the moment anyway... :/

Ok, all the above digested?

Not even close.

If the batch ripper can do this for you, then your use of changers to automate the hand-loading part could be replaced with any devices that fit the batch ripper device model, either other changers or robots, correct?

I believe this is correct. I mean, with the current process, I can hand load through the slot if I really had a lot of time to work with it, but loading through the carts and then having the machine scan everything is much faster/efficient... Unfortunately, the mechanisms are the problem. They get out of alignment frequently (twice/three times a year) and cost big bucks to "fix".

I'd recommend two to four medium sized robots (for a total of four drives) for the kind of work you do.

Currently running with 2 robots (2 drives in one, 4 drives in the other) across a SCSI interface. However, due to some weird.. bug.. in the driver? Point software? Haven't pinned it down, but if a certain condition occurs with the drive scanning a disc while another is reading, it causes audio skips as the device seems to time-out for a second. Result: Shitty quality audio and have to rerip if I catch it. The solution has been to just use one drive and suffer, but it's an overnight batch and hasn't been too much of an issue.

For Batch Ripping I also recommend ripping to a lossless format (such as Wave, or FLAC), then overnighting the conversion to mp3/wma - possibly you could do it in one step (you would have to use the multi-encoder, but this complicates your filenaming by x25

What I currently do is rip to .wav and make sure the names are correct. Using a manual process, I rip using EZ-CDDA Extractor because it gives me an easy way to do my filenames correctly without an extra dialog box (unlike the dbpoweramp cd ripper.. :( a directly editable filename box might be awesome here.. ) I then set-up the multi-encoding in dbpoweramp batch converter with the bitrates I need and using the [origfilename] and appending whatever format code I need at the end. Easy Peezy once I got it down. (If I had any request, it'd be the ability to create an encoding "profile" with where I could add my 5 (soon to be 6) encoding formats to with checkboxes. Default to all, but with the ability to uncheck bit-rates I don't need if necessary.. Occasionally our back-end transcoder fails (I have no idea what they're using on the back-end) and I have to re-encode, for example, just the 128kb file, but it's easier for me to just have it re-encode everything rather than dig through and just do one. Anyway, I figure if I got serious enough about it, i'd just write a wxPython app or similar that would just call the encoder via command line stuff... On the other hand, I'm not being paid as a developer, so I'm on the fence about doing "real" dev work for "free" (the app would be able to pull metadata from the db and generate xml, encode the audio, setup ingestion queues, ftp files, etc.. Basically a gigantic script, but that's "real dev work" to me... )

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Primera's current offerings fall into the medium sized robot category. They'll definitely be the way to go if the batch ripper works for your needs and you need corporate warranty support.

-brendan

[Spoon]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Officially (will be more public soon) we recommend:

http://www.primera.com/

I have been impressed by the build quality of their systems, internally we use them for 1000's of DVD duplication, all without a hitch day and night.

In batch ripper you can get a disc sequential number, also there is a DSP effect called Run External - these two could potentially (with some clever scripting) allow a list of UPC numbers to be applied to filenames.

For Batch Ripping I also recommend ripping to a lossless format (such as Wave, or FLAC), then overnighting the conversion to mp3/wma - possibly you could do it in one step (you would have to use the multi-encoder, but this complicates your filenaming by x25

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Full disclosure: I'm still selling new in box Kodak 50 CD robots and software bundle for $300 each + S/H at this time - and I have plenty of them at this time. I'll attempt to keep my advice hardware neutral, however.*

Rather than try to look at what you do now in detail, I'll take a simplistic approach with the question: can the Batch Ripper, with one or more non-automated optical drive(s) (built-in or external - we're ignoring the disc manual loading labor for now), give you the end results you want without per-disc manual intervention at the keyboard?

You can test this now using the dbpoweramp reference trial (or licensed, of course) and some optical drives (and you can even work on getting a simplified workflow created). However, because I'm specializing in robot-related things, I don't have the wherewithal nor expertise to answer the questions for you on the metadata and filename issues with regards to your requirements and the batch ripper. That I'll leave to you to figure out, perhaps with help from others when you get to specific stumbling points.

Ok, all the above digested?

If the batch ripper can do this for you, then your use of changers to automate the hand-loading part could be replaced with any devices that fit the batch ripper device model, either other changers or robots, correct?

If so, there are several potential replacement hardware types in the robot arena that should be considered (new and used) for use with dbpoweramp: from the low-end (25 discs per load with one drive); through the medium capacities (50-100 discs per load with one or two drives); through large capacity (250 - 1000 discs per load with two to eight drives).

I'd recommend two to four medium sized robots (for a total of four drives) for the kind of work you do. One benefit of going with small to medium sized robots vs. the large ones is that you can afford redundancy: a single failed robot does not force you to go back to an entirely manual process. Of course, if you have the revenue to support it, yearly warranty contract fees to the large robot makers can keep the largest robots attractive (double check the potential amount of down time for warrantied robots, however).

I'll second Eli's mention of the reliability of the composer max, they're built pretty tough...but they're very hard to come by these days. User experience with the Sony XL1B changers has been mixed - from what I have read, it seems it's easy for them to get out of alignment.

-brendan

* ...but one reason I decided to resell the Kodak units was how happy I was with the rip quality (under XP, they don't work well under Vista due to changes at the USB mass storage layer) as well as the heavy-duty build construction (vs., say, the 25-disc baxter-type units). I can send further info if you PM me your email address (all correspondence in the strictest confidence, of course). The units have a 90-day replacement warranty only, but they're quite inexpensive!

[EliC]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

I would recommend you look for a Primera Composer Max. This thing is a workhorse!

Im not sure I could follow your workflow. Seemed very complicated and I think you could easily do it in dBpoweramp with much less work.

[PlanetMongo]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Also, what is the consensus on Powerfile products? I see C200s on ebay, arent' these very similar to the Sonys? Our vendor is also tryign to sell us on Powerfile A3 SMB, would batch ripper work with it? Getting a new unit with support/warranty would be great, especially if we can ditch the $$$ proprietary software.

[PlanetMongo]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Some advice, please:

I'm still searching for a way to reduce my workflow. The Plasmon D120s have finally given up the ghost. :(

Basically, what I do: I receive CDs (and sometimes "enhanced" CDs (CD+G?)) from content providers and I have to rip them for encoding. For small batches (< 10 discs), I just do it by hand (i.e. the external CD-ROM drive), no big deal. But sometimes we have huge batches (60, 100, even 1500 once) and that's where I used my D-120s (2 towers, one with 80, one with 120 slots).

So, I'd open the D-120s and load the cartridges, then open the PointSoft admin software, have it scan the carts, then I'd have to rename each disc to our naming convention (this is a commercial setup, btw. You'd recognize our name). So, it would generate a name like a532icex and I'd rename it to something like CODE_UPC_DISCNUMBER. Then I'd use a batch copy function to copy to the hard drive (an overnight process). The next morning, I'd have a bunch of folders containing files named TITLE01.wav, TITLE02.wav. No big deal, I then used a small utility to just replace TITLE with <folder> so the files would end up being named CODE_UPC_DISCNUMBER_01, etc, which is exactly what I need before I can start encoding the audio into various formats and submitting to our ingestion servers.

After completion of this, I can then delete those files (.wavs and encoded files (wma and mp3) and go on to the next batch.

As you can imagine, I'd love to be able to just either add the UPC and DISCNUMBER to the metadata and then just encode straight off the bat with the correct names (and skip ripping to .wav altogether). Album names, artist names, etc, are all irrelevant for my needs.

Okay, so now the D120s are broken and the costs for repair are astronomical, not to mention Plasmon is out of business so it's time to look towards the future.

What jukebox-style readers are available on the market that would be able to survive heavy* industrial use? Our Plasmon supporter is pushing us on blu-ray, which is rather odd because.. well, we work with CDs (and occasionally data DVDRs) and is obvious they have no idea how/why/what we use our machines for (basically glorified CD towers for ripping).

I currently use dbpowerproamp for all of our encoding processes, and it works great. I'd like to move the entire process to dbpowerproamp, just because it saves on workflow. If you were counting above, I've got at least 4 different programs I have to use to get to the end result, any reduction in that work would be awesome.

Is this possible with dbpowerproamp batch ripper? Will I have to tinker with scripts to get my desired naming format, etc (not really a problem, per se, but the less I muck around with scripts, the happier I am)? Are there any recommended rippers that I could use to replace these POS Plasmons? Heck, if they're cheap and readily serviced, the easier/better it will be. Currently a drive costs something like $3500 to be replaced in a Plasmon... From a cursory search through the thread, it appears the Sony XL1B might be a contender, how's it hold up?

Any advice, comments are appreciated.

Thanks!

*Heavy = daily usage.. Not really, depends on the project, but they typically see usage one day a month. They were going for about 8 months straight, though, which may have worn them out. Environment is climate controlled office, not out in a warehouse..

[Stoene]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Brendan,
Thanks for the replies. Work has kept me away from the fun stuff. Once I establish communication with the Rimage board, I'll try all of the commands from the wiki. I'm expecting to see the normal verbose greeting with the controller at start of com i.e. model number and such. I did a quick search of www to try and identify the com chip (232ABC P0105ABUH) on the controller board. In doing so, to try to work the com problem from the other side. I still need to trace the pins to confirm that a standard serial cable was used. It would have been nice to have gotten the software and cable with the Rimage unit, but the redistribution center is a meat grinder auction / sales place. They don't have a clue nor want to on what they are selling. If a computer is shipped with a unit. I will be sold separately. So I can't snoop on a working command set. In any case, I'll keep you posted on any progress. Thanks

On another note, about a year ago I bought a medical CNC machine from the same folks cheap cheap (Beckman BioMek 1000-it moved test tubes around during experiments). I got it for $75. When the thing was new (10 plus years ago) it cost $10k's. It has a custom brain board and a controller board. I've LowBot'ed it. I have made a few trace cuts and have soldered into the control board with my pc control wires. I'm going to use the parallel output of an old computer and Kcam (Kelliware) as the CNC controller software. It will only have a small working area, about 1.5 ft cubed. I'll be able to do what is called 2 1/2 D work on it. Other than who knows what kind of germs it handled it's awesome (I did clean and Lysol the heck out of it).

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Stoene -

I haven't worked with the DTP 1500 or DTP 4500 (aka ras 13) at all
yet. My wiki page has some info for the earlier serial-controlled DTP
1000/4000 units here:

http://hyperdiscs.pbworks.com/Command+Sets+--+RImage

Perhaps that might be close to what's needed for the 4500 and a
potential starting point? I found the pickers on the 1000/4000
generation of units to be very unreliable for mixed lots of commercial
CDs (the pickers work much better for blanks where everything is the
same thickness). Hopefully the picker on the 4500 was upgraded.

Later RImage units (RAS xx) types used a very complex (and perhaps
convoluted) command set that I haven't even begun to document,
probably won't get a chance to do so until next year.

The tools of the trade for trying to document the command sets under
windows is Portmon for logging serial data and hyperterminal (or
putty) for manually testing commands.

-brendan

[Stoene]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Hello,
Have any of you ran across or used the Rimage DTP 4500 (RAS 13)? I have one but can't seem to get it to talk using hyperterm. It has a firewire port and serial cable on back. It has four drives which are converted from edi to firewire. It has a controller board of which the serial is connected to. I did observe two sets of 232 chips on controller board. The serial is served by one. The other is possibly used for the PS2 the printer was hooked to. I found the wiki page created by bhoar. I tried various 8n1, 8E1, 19200, null modem etc. with no luck. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Joe

ps. Speaking of finding good deals on Ebay for these things, I found this one at a State auction/sales facility. I found it in the 'we don't know what this is section.' It didn't sale at the the discount price of $100. My next visit it was $40 and was mine! I got it minus the printer and software and without knowing whether it did anything on the premise that I will enjoy the tinkering.

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Has anyone used a loader with a DVD drive and performed batch DVD rips (using other SW)?

I've done so using some home-grown scripts for my single-drive amtren/discmakers 60/75-disc units and two 50-disc kodak units I swapped DVD drives into. Basically a variant of my tray watcher scripts with some custom autoit code to auto-copy using a third party tool.

I've found, however, that the third party tool likes to crash and exit when it encounters damaged or hard to read discs (esp. if running more than on extract at a time), so that ended up being a bit of a waste of time to do with robots.

At least until they fix the third party tool to be more robust.

In general, though, it's considered off-topic to talk about dvds in this forum.

-brendan