Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Regarding the Kodak driver, I've made some updates:

1. A change from 2-second to 10-second pause after insert (to allow for the Teac drive to perform an uninterrupted spinup and recognize discs properly).

2. Tightened up a few bits of timing to shave a few seconds here and there,

3. Added a --pausereject=no/yes option to the script for times where the operator would prefer the unit would stop on rejects, instead of just dropping it into the single output pile. It pauses and beeps every minute with an OK dialog presented. When you press OK, it drops the disc, so you can grab it from the pile. Might be useful if the discs aren't well labeled (e.g. you're ripping CD-Rs for some reason).

I'll be sending the updated archive to spoon so he can put the installer together.

-brendan

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

iWhat,

Yeah, unfortunately there isn't really a good user community forum for CD/DVD duplicator hardware and related applications. The few small ones I have seen have usually been bolted on to a reseller site partly as a pseudo-support forum and partly to drum up business.

If you do post to your blog, send the link this way, I'd like to see the responses.

-brendan

[sonyman]

RIMAGE DTP 800 Driver

Dear Brandan,
i try agin!
Have you news about the DTP 800 Driver,
how can i use the Machine with the Batchripper?

I hope you have now more Time!


Best Regards
Bastian

[iWhat]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

I appreciate your insight bhoar.

The thing I've noticed while researching these units is that once I think my mind is made up, there are always new questions and issues that come up. And considering the lack of information online, this has become quite a difficult decision.

Mostly, I get my information from the sales people at these different companies, which of course tends to be biased. And the information I get from different resellers is also biased towards whichever manufacturer they get a larger profit margin on.

As for ink costs, I concluded that it would be more cost effective for me to go for a unit that supports 4 individual cartridges for CMYK and not those tri-color cartridges found in most other HP-driven printers. Thus, advantage, Microboards in this department.

I'm steering away from Primera due to their higher cost proprietary ink catridges. The Microboards' ones, while also proprietary, are less expensive.

The purpose of this purchase is, in fact, for business use. Regardless of which unit I decide to buy, there will be 2 of them to minimize downtime in case of failure. Despite this, I would still like to have a unit that won't need to be repaired every 3 months. I am in Canada, so those 24-hour on-site warranty options are unfortunately, not available to me.

As for MF Digital, while their units seem solid and capable of handling a large workload, I've heard mixed things about the company itself. Apparently, they like to file bankruptcy every 3-4 years and then start fresh under a new name. Thus, voiding whatever warranty was purchased before the bankruptcy. A lot of resellers stopped carrying their products for this very reason.

I cannot find any Canadian resellers on Froogle. And with the unfavorable exchange rate right now, buying from the US is not a viable option. I wish I needed to make this purchase a year ago when our currency was at par!

So in reality, the 2 units I'm leaning mostly towards are the R-Quest and Microboards.

I like R-Quest due to the
- Higher disc holding capacity.
- Relatively fast robotics.
- Stand-alone operation.
- Networking capability.

However, on the downside, their printer uses only 2 cartridges (HP 56 and 57). I imagine this shortens the ink cartridge life considerably. And I'm not sold on the reliability of all these moving parts and robotic arms. It seems they would be costly to repair out of warranty.

The advantage of the Microboards unit, on the other hand...
- Would have a lower ink cost per disc.
- A more reliable, albeit slower robotic system.
- Rapid exchange, overnight replacement warranty option.
- Is about $1200 cheaper per unit.

But, it does not have stand-alone operation nor networking capabilities.

It seems I have merely documented my thoughts here. Perhaps, this post would have been better suited for my blog. :P

Any additional feedback is more than welcome.

Thank You

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

iWhat -

Well, I can't give you perfect advice, because I don't use the machines for duplication or printing. In addition, I have an "experience bias" toward machines that are controlled via a standard serial port or a USB<->serial bridge (vs. proprietary USB protocols) as well as machines that regularly show up for resale on ebay, meaning I've never acquired an R-Quest unit, bravo pro or Microboards MX-2.

But I have variants of all but the R-Quest unit here.

So I can only give you rough, general purpose advice.

1. Duplication costs (and expenses/profit margins) are very dependent on printing costs. These in turn, are dependent on cost of media types required/supported by the printing technology, # of disks per ink cartridge/toner unit, cartridge type (one combined/CMYK separates), whether generic cartridges are available, whether continuous ink setups are available, etc. I can't point you to the cheapest reliable technology, but I just gave you pointers to the stuff you need to research.

2. Primera's business model is similar to the "razor blades" model. They use barcodes to enforce purchase of their own (usually more expensive) cartridges, which means you won't find generic cartridges being sold (but you can buy expensive sheets of fake barcodes on ebay for using generic cartridges). I do not know if the other three do this or not, but I suspect not.

3. If you need to depend on the hardware for your business, I am of the mind that, given a single sum of money, it's probably a safer bet to buy two smaller units, each with half the capacity vs. one larger unit, all other things being the same. If a single unit fails, you can see why having two would be better that having one. If you need the features of the larger unit, then make sure you have a warranty (and can afford one) with on-site repair or 24-hour replacement features.

4. Some of the units you pointed to are peripherals, others may be full blown windows computers inside the duplicators. Keep that in mind in terms of system cost and support issues. I suspect that the windows inside ones are more reliable as long as you follow their rules and never install anything not supported by the supplier.

5. If the unit you buy uses a "separate" printer, it is best to purchase the duplicator/printer together as a package, because they often require custom mounting plates that you would have to search out separately for several hundred dollars if you bought the duplicator and printer separately.

6. Froogle is your friend on pricing, but always double check with a deeper google search as well as old fashioned telephone shopping: sometimes sales sites aren't indexed on froogle.

7. I like the picker in the contemporary MF Digital units and, the 9602's use of two drive positions can increase throughput. Microboards units' robotics are simpler, but do require the drive tray to close on Accepts as well as Rejects, which can slow the unload/load cycle a little bit.

Lastly, I will note that I have hardly answered your questions, and given you more questions to ponder.

[iWhat]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Hello,

I found this forum while searching for information on the reliability of certain autoloading cd duplicators that I am considering purchasing.

A lot of you seems very knowledgeable in this domain and I would appreciate your recommendations.

I've narrowed it down to the following units:

- R-Quest 7200 2 drive unit with FlashJet printer
- Microboards MX-2
- Primera Bravo Pro
- MF Digital Scribe 9602 with PicoJet printer

My primary concerns are reliability of the robotics, output speed, then printer quality.

Which is these units should I be leaning towards? Do any of you have any personal experience with these units?

I plan on producing up to 2000 CDs per month so I need a unit capable of handling that workload. Are there any other units I should consider instead?

Thank you in advance for your help. I've been researching duplicators for over a month and haven't been able to find too much information on them besides on EMediaLive. I am anxious to finally make my purchase.

Again, your feedback is well appreciated.

[hofftodd]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

I've had my Kodak robot running round the clock for about 2 weeks now. I've ripped through most of my collection and had a mostly good experience with the robot.

The few issues I have had:

* It sometimes takes up to 6 minutes to recognize a disk after load. I think there is something wrong with my cd drivers running in Vista. When this occurs, there is almost no cpu resources being used but all cd/dvd drive and hard drive access freeze up until the disk is finally recognized.

* I occasionally load a bad stack of discs, and the robot cannot knock the bottom disc off of the spindle. The "black finger" activates when it should and hits the bottom of the stack, but no disc falls off. This quickly results in 10 failed disc loads and ends the batch. I haven't quite figured out what the problem is when this occurs. Reloading the stack has always solved the problem.

* My cd collection is less than pristine, and I'm getting lots of errors during ripping. I'm not doing any pre rip cleaning, and I'm using the robot to sort through the discs that are in need of buffing. This slows down the process, but who cares... The robot is doing the work. I've ordered a disc buffing tool (aleratec) and will start cleaning and re-ripping the error pile soon.

Overall, great experience. I've been very happy with the robot and the dBpoweramp software. Thanks to everyone on the forum for the help!

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Re: loading the Kodak spindle

I'm now finding it more reliable to:

a) load the discs onto the spindle
b) click the disc lock into place
c) invert the spindle, but use a hand grip that holds the discs up against the *top* instead of the lock.
d) move a (clean, recently washed) hand up into the cage from underneath
e) lower the spindle into place using the lower hand to keep the discs compressed up to the top
f) click the top of the spindle into the three bolts at the top of the cage
g) using the hand still under the discs, slowly and *evenly* drop the disc stack into place.

Note that this may not be a recommended method if you were using blank discs (e.g. unit as a duplicator) because even vague fingerprints can be fatal when burning, but I find the results more than acceptable for ripping.

I'm doing some additional testing to ensure the drivers work correctly in parallel...e.g. today I have three kodak units stacked on my desk, with phone books as spacers and tupperware above the first and second spindles to prevent dropped discs from skittering off.

So...how're the rest of the kodakians robot-related experiences going?

-brendan

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Brendan, thanks again for the suggestions. I'll make this settings change and see if I get fewer failed to load discs.

Todd - for the record, changing that sleep from 2 to 10 seconds has fixed a similar issue on one of my machines. So, perhaps everyone should make that change.

Also, for anyone else who has problems with the USB to Serial adapter inside the kodak units not being recognized by windows, here's the driver page for the 2303 chipset:

http://www.prolific.com.tw/eng/downloads.asp?ID=31

-brendan

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

This change ensures the code does inform the batch ripper that the disc was inserted for at least 10 seconds after it was inserted. Should be enough time for it to spin up and start recognition before the batch ripper regains control and *should* help to prevent the batch ripper from timing out. You can experiment with different values.

Er, I meant to type "This change ensures the code does *not* inform the batch ripper...". Basically, add a delay before telling the batch ripper that it can look at the drive...to ensure the initial spin-up is not interrupted.

-brendan

[hofftodd]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

This change ensures the code does inform the batch ripper that the disc was inserted for at least 10 seconds after it was inserted. Should be enough time for it to spin up and start recognition before the batch ripper regains control and *should* help to prevent the batch ripper from timing out. You can experiment with different values.

-brendan

Brendan, thanks again for the suggestions. I'll make this settings change and see if I get fewer failed to load discs.

[bhoar]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

Todd-

Before we go to the scratched disc fixing, I can probably help with timeouts causing the failed loads by suggesting a minor adjustment of the kodak script. Open this file using notepad.exe:

C:\Program Files\Illustrate\dBpoweramp\BatchRipper\Loaders\Kodak Kiosk 50 disc\Load\DefaultCmdLine.txt

Actually make a backup of it first, then edit it.

Make sure Format/Word Wrap is *not* checked before editing, because the lines are very very long and we don't want notepad to auto-wrap, which will break the script.

Hit ctrl-f to Find, then type --sleep=2 then hit enter, which should bring you to the post-load post-close sleep command (note there are two --sleep=2 instances, we want the first one).

Hit right arrow to unselect the nine chars of text, hit left arrow to move back to right after the 2, hit backspace once to erase the 2 and then type 10 to change the 2 to a 10.

e.g. we change this:

... --closeblind --sleep=2 --unbindtodrive ...

to this:

... --closeblind --sleep=10 --unbindtodrive ...

Do a File/Save from the menu.

Restart the batch ripper.

This change ensures the code does inform the batch ripper that the disc was inserted for at least 10 seconds after it was inserted. Should be enough time for it to spin up and start recognition before the batch ripper regains control and *should* help to prevent the batch ripper from timing out. You can experiment with different values.

-brendan

[hofftodd]

Re: Discussion of Automated CD Loaders

It's been almost 21 hours! I am beside myself with anticipation!

-brendan

Thanks for all the help with getting the Kodak robot up and running. I've had it running on a continuous batch for 30 hours and 48 minutes. It occasionally skips loading discs, but if I let it keep running it will begin to pick them up again. I'm not sure if the spindle alignments on my unit are just a bit off.

What I'm finding now is that my aging cd collection has many scratched and unreadable discs (66 discs ripped successfully, 15 discs rejected due to errors, 21 discs failed to load on the current batch). Most of the discs failed to load are due to a long wait time on load, and if I put them back in the stack, they load successfully the second time around.

Overall, I'm really happy with dBPA and the batch ripping functionality. I'm also really happy with the robot. It is great to be able to leave the system running while I am away. I can't imagine trying to rip my collection by hand...

But, I'm definitely in the market for a cd scratch repair system now. Any suggestions? I've been looking at the aleratec and skip dr. disc repair tools.

[IamNemo]

Re: My Sony do not respond anymore

IamNemo: You are active at the AVS Forum. Think you would have better chances over there.

I followed your advice and cross-posted to AVS. Thanks, Nemo.

[Porcus]

Re: My Sony do not respond anymore

IamNemo: You are active at the AVS Forum. Think you would have better chances over there.