Set-Up for Ripping

[dbarnby]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Thanks garym. The bit about multi-value tagging is most helpful.

NOTE: I NOTICE IN THE FORUM POST THAT WHEN I USED A DASH (-) THE TEXT SHOWED "&8211;" I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT'S ABOUT BUT IT SHOULD BE A "-"

Garym, you and mville have both stressed the importance of simplicity and I agree completely. That's the principle I'm applying as I refine my naming (particularly since, in the end, I have to explain it to my wife so she can navigate easily).

As you have mentioned, one man's preference is another man's poison so there is indeed room for various approaches. I'd like to take a moment to review what I am suggesting since, for me, it is simplicity itself. Please forebear this re-statement.

1) Precede every genre with an N or C depending if it's non-classic or classical.
2) Separate the N from the genera with a dash (-) if the CD is various ARTISTS
Separate the C from the genera with a dash (-) if the CD is various COMPOSERS

EXAMPLE: N Jazz C Opera
N Pop C Symphony

N-Jazz C-Opera [various artists]
N-Pop C-Symphony [various composers]

Note: For classical, the dash alerts me to the fact that such CD contains various COMPOSERS. Therefore, I treat composer-centric classical CD's in parallel fashion to my artist-centric non-classical CD's. (to me this is entirely logical and simple). Using the compilation checkbox applies only to artist-centric music but does little regarding compose-centric music.

The result of the above approach is that in File Explorer (since my top category is genre) I have four genre groups (N Genre, N-Genre, C Genre, C-Genre); from there I directly select the desired second level. Indeed, this approach results in a of genre is longer (twice as long) but it takes only one click to reach the second level of artist or composer.

Example for non-classical:
a) for above approach: Library > N-Jazz > second level
b) w/the compilation check box approach this becomes: Library > N Jazz > Compilations > second level. In this case (b) the compilations are "hidden" as sub-folders under the "compilations" folder and need to be revealed with a second click before addressing them. To me, that's more complicated.

In the case of a) all genre selections are spread out before me at once and I can go directly to the desired second level. In addition, it introduces a distinction for multiple composers rather parallel to that of multiple artists. This is useful for composer-centric classical CD's

A similar result (benefit?) occurs when, in the Player, I search by tag under Genre.

To me, this is entirely logical and simple. However, there remains a nagging feeling that I may not fully understand everything that the Compilation check-box accomplishes, and that uncertainty is why I am writing all this is detail; I need to learn if I have missed considering something.

I do realize that checking the Compilation check-box introduces <Various Artists> into the Artist box, however, it has been my observation that that is accomplished automatically when a compilation CD is scanned, and that the check-box is also automatically checked as well. I'm not sure when the occasion would arise that I need to check the Compilation box manually.

I also notice that when a compilation CD is scanned the track listings don't show "Various Artist," rather, the specific track artists (and composers) are captured track for track (which is good).

If I'm missing something about what Compilations does, please let me know; I don't want to rip my collection and then find I should have done it differently.

Thanks,
Don

[garym]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Don, Sorry, but to be honest (and no offense I hope), your tagging/naming scheme above is so foreign to the way I think about things, that I can't be of any help. It may make perfect sense, but I can't even read more than the first few sentences before I give up. Not because there is necessarily anything wrong with it. It's just my brain doesn't work that way and it seems like you're building an atomic weapon to simply hammer a nail. I'm having trouble figuring out what your issue is with the very simple approach of (1) ticking the compilation box for compilation CDs and (2) including an ALBUM ARTIST for at least the compilation CDs (this ALBUM ARTIST could be as simple as VARIOUS ARTISTS, or SOUNDTRACKS or ???). The latter approach works perfectly for me across many different music servers/players.

[dbarnby]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Thank you for your direct and candid answer, garym. I appreciate the fact that different minds work differently, and I'm not trying to sell anybody on the way I see it. I also appreciate how hard it can be to wrap one's mind around new concepts; that is exactly what I've been struggling with from the start, since it's all new to me. (But I am getting it.)

What I have done (with genre) may well simply be a reflection of how little I understand the Compilation command. And that, in fact, is the main thrust of that last post, i.e., to understand completely what the compilation check box does. If I can understand better the compilation command, then the "work around" that seems to make sense to me may then seem as unnecessary to me as it does to you.

The one sentence in my post of most importance was "I need to learn if I have missed considering something [about compilation]." With that in mind, I wonder if you would help me with just that understanding by answering a few very specific questions, without worrying about my work around using genre? Here is that question:

When a compilation CD is scanned, dbpa seems to automatically put <Various Artists> in the main Artist box at the top of the screen, and also automatically check the compilation check box. It also puts the actual, individual artists for each track in the track listing.

Two further questions follow from this:

a) Since the two actions, above, occur automatically as a result of the scan, is there ever an occasion when it is necessary to check the box manually? And if so, in what situations?

b) does checking that box (manually or automatically) do anything else in dbpa, and if so what?

I will be most appreciative of any discussion you can provide about my concerns above.

---


In addition, I think you (or someone) has indicated the answer to the following "question," but I want to ask if you would confirm that I understand the following correctly.

When I use the compilation check box, is the result, in the File Explorer, to place a folder called "compilations" in the second-level beneath each genre (given that I desire my top-level folder to be genre)? This would result in many compilations folders, each containing CD's for a particular genre. I appreciate the fact that this may depend on the structure of the Naming String; however, the above is how it seems to be working.

Alternatively, if I structured the Naming String differently, I might have a single compilations folder that contained all compilation CD's. Is that true?

Thank you,
Don

[garym]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

When a compilation CD is scanned, dbpa seems to automatically put <Various Artists> in the main Artist box at the top of the screen, and also automatically check the compilation check box. It also puts the actual, individual artists for each track in the track listing.

Correct. Note that the < Various Artists> you see in the ARTIST field at the top of screen is NOT something that is written to a tag field. All this <Various Artists> tells you is that dbpa ripper recognizes that the individual tracks in the CD have different ARTISTS listed. For example, if you give some of tracks a different value of YEAR, the YEAR at top of ripping screen will say something like <Various> or <Various Years> (I forget). Again, this is just information for you that the tracks don't all have the same value for that tag field.

And then one can either leave the ALBUM ARTIST field (upper left of ripping screen) blank, or one can enter something there. I generally leave blank but others put "Various Artists" in ALBUM ARTIST, or put "Soundtrack" for soundtrack albums, or other things. I leave blank unless I want the compilation album to show up when I browse for some artist in particular. For example, I have a Bob Dylan tribute album. It is a compilation. All the tracks have different artists. Bob Dylan is not an artist on the CD. But on that CD, i tick the Compilation box, each track has its own actual artist, but I then put "Bob Dylan" in the ALBUM ARTIST field for the CD. This is so when I browse in my server for Bob Dylan albums, this compilation "tribute" CD shows up under the listing of Bob Dylan albums. Of course the album tracks *also* shows up under any of the actual artists that have tracks on that album. (side note: this is a reason that TAGS are better for managing music on a server than simply folder/file name in a file explorer. That is, in file explorer, something is in one "location" only. But with tags and a music server/player, things can show up in multiple places based on the logic of the tags and the servers database. This is not unique to music files. This is a main feature of any relational database.

a) Since the two actions, above, occur automatically as a result of the scan, is there ever an occasion when it is necessary to check the box manually? And if so, in what situatio?

What dbpa does in ripping is go out on the internet and try to locate the metadata (tag info) for the CD you've inserted. 99% of the time it finds the right info and presents it to you. That's why it knows that something is a compilation or not. But occasionally the CD you insert doesn't have correct info in the internet databases. So you have to enter things manually. This could include the compilation tick box, album name, song names, genre, or essentially any of the tags.

b) does checking that box (manually or automatically) do anything else in dbpa, and if so what?

Not really. It simply allows one to have different ARTISTS for each track rather than the same ARTIST for each track. The other thing it does is that is allows your naming string to name files and place album in a directory or subdirectory based on how you want to file COMPILATIONS as compared to how you want to file non-Compilations. The naming strings you are using that I previously gave you do that (name/file things differently based on whether something is a compilation or not).

In addition, I think you (or someone) has indicated the answer to the following "question," but I want to ask if you would confirm that I understand the following correctly.

When I use the compilation check box, is the result, in the File Explorer, to place a folder called "compilations" in the second-level beneath each genre (given that I desire my top-level folder to be genre)? This would result in many compilations folders, each containing CD's for a particular genre. I appreciate the fact that this may depend on the structure of the Naming String; however, the above is how it seems to be working.

Alternatively, if I structured the Naming String differently, I might have a single compilations folder that contained all compilation CD's. Is that true?

Yes, currently the naming string you are using has a compilations folder underneath each GENRE. If you prefer to have a compilatons folder that has CDs from any and all GENRES, that's possible too. Not sure why you would want that since GENRE filing seems important to you. You would end up with Jazz, Pop, Classical etc. compilations all in one big folder. But that's possible. Let me know and I can give you a modified naming string that will do that.

[mville]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

However, there remains a nagging feeling that I may not fully understand everything that the Compilation check-box accomplishes, and that uncertainty is why I am writing all this is detail; I need to learn if I have missed considering something.

I do realize that checking the Compilation check-box introduces <Various Artists> into the Artist box, however, it has been my observation that that is accomplished automatically when a compilation CD is scanned, and that the check-box is also automatically checked as well. I'm not sure when the occasion would arise that I need to check the Compilation box manually.

Your assumption that checking the Compilation check-box introduces <Various Artists> into the Artist box is not true. Try un-checking the Compilation check-box, <Various Artists> remains in the Artist text box OR try checking Compilation, when all CD tracks contain the same Artist value, <Various Artists> does not appear in the Artist box.

However, you are correct in thinking that on inserting a CD, if the CD tracks have different Artist values, CD Ripper will automatically check the Compilation check-box, which I personally find very annoying.

<Various Artists> is showing in the Artist box, when CD tracks have different values in the Artist tag. CD Ripper cannot show more than 1 value in a text box, so <Various Artists> shows. This behaviour is true for all tags displayed in CD Ripper, i.e. <Various Artists>, <Various Composers> etc.

Checking Compilation simply puts the value 1 in the compilation tag.

[dbarnby]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Excellent! Thank you garym and mville.

I need one further clarification, garym, relating to your second paragraph.
If I understand correctly, you use Various Artist as a place to put Bob Dylan when he is not an artist on the CD so you can search for that CD under Dylan in the Artist tag.

Since that CD does not have Dylan in its Artist tag, why would it come up in a search under Artist? Wouldn't you have to search under Album Artist to find it? What is going on here?

Note: my Bluesound does not seem to show Album Artist as a search tag, although I understood that such had been added (I'll ask them).

Thank you all,
Don

[Oggy]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

... (1) ticking the compilation box for compilation CDs and (2) including an ALBUM ARTIST for at least the compilation CDs (this ALBUM ARTIST could be as simple as VARIOUS ARTISTS, or SOUNDTRACKS or ???). The latter approach works perfectly for me across many different music servers/players.

Don,

Following on from garym's post, a further consideration or two.

For a film Soundtrack (OST, Original Soundtrack etc.), these could easily be deemed a Compilation, and certainly some people would expect to see them in Compilations / Various Artists. You could also as garym suggested, use Soundtrack as the Album Artist, and uncheck Compilation.

I would avoid using Various Artists as the Artist or Album Artist name in a non-compilation. Why? Because if you ever use your files on LMS (Logitech Media Server), this can cause unwanted problems, and you may want to use LMS in the future.

This is the same reasoning why I previously recommended a size and file limit for album art, of 1000 x 1000 and 300 x 300, to give comparability with Sonos. You and I may never use Sonos equipment, but by having that limit, which also works for BlueOS and LMS, we have files that are more universally compatible, without the need of extra "tweaking".

The Compilation checkbox should certainly always be looked at closely, to ensure it is set as we as required. For some this may mean checking and for others unchecking.

Neil Young, Decade, is obviously a compilation album, but many, myself included, would have it as a non-compilation, with Neil Young as the Album Artist and his various bands as the Artist.

Do you see something such as, 60 Hits Of The 60s, a compilation, or non-compilation?

[Oggy]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Note: my Bluesound does not seem to show Album Artist as a search tag, although I understood that such had been added (I'll ask them).

But does it display Album Artist and the track Artists?

[GaryG45]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Don,
Some players look at the Album Artist and Artist tag to determine what to display for Artist. My Sonos checks if the Album Artist tag exists and will display that tag as the Artist. If Album Artist is blank, it will display the Artist tag as the Artist. If you have something in the Album Artist tag for the music the Bluesound is using and Album Artist isn't an option in the Bluesound search, it appears that it works in the same manner as the Sonos.

[garym]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Excellent! Thank you garym and mville.

I need one further clarification, garym, relating to your second paragraph.
If I understand correctly, you use Various Artist as a place to put Bob Dylan when he is not an artist on the CD so you can search for that CD under Dylan in the Artist tag.

Since that CD does not have Dylan in its Artist tag, why would it come up in a search under Artist? Wouldn't you have to search under Album Artist to find it? What is going on here?

Note: my Bluesound does not seem to show Album Artist as a search tag, although I understood that such had been added (I'll ask them).

Thank you all,
Don

I didn't put "Bob Dylan" in the Artist box where you see <Various Artists>, as explained above, that is just an indication that the tracks have differing artists. I put "Bob Dylan" in the ALBUM ARTIST field for the CD. And no, I'm not searching in this case for Bob Dylan in the ARTIST tag. My music server (Logitech Media Server) would show me Albums listed under Bob Dylan that are either in ARTIST or ALBUM ARTIST with the name Bob Dylan. And in this tribute album case, he wouldn't show up under ARTIST (because he's not an artist on that album). But because I've put him as ALBUM ARTIST, the album shows up under Bob Dylan. See picture below. You can see that the Bob Dylan tribute album is listed under my Bob Dylan albums in my music server (even though he is NOT an artist on that album. But I forced this by making Bob Dylan the ALBUM ARTIST.) This is all related to my music server and player, so don't get too wrapped up in understanding this. I only used it as an example. But I'm surprised that Bluesound doesn't handle album artist tag.

[dbarnby]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

When I click on Album it lists songs; when I r-clk on a song it shows song artist

I don't see that it shows Album Artists

[dbarnby]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Yesterday I went to the address below and edited my genre pull-down menu


%Userprofile%\AppData\Roaming\dBpoweramp

The genre additions I made were added successfully, however, there is a single (undesirable) genre entry on my pull-down that is not on the list I edited at the above site. I don't know how to get rid of it.

Also, the list I see on the dbpa pull-down listing has a space at the top, about 6 lines tall, which has no entries at all (just an empty white space).

Help?
Don

[Oggy]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

When I click on Album it lists songs; when I r-clk on a song it shows song artist

I don't see that it shows Album Artists

Hi Don,

The Synology DS app doesn't mention Album Artist, but this is how it handles the previously mentioned Neil Young (Album Artist) Decade



Your app may work similarly, as mentioned by GaryG45

[dbarnby]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Thanks, Oggy:

I'll ask BueSound next time I talk with them.

Don

[GaryG45]

Re: Set-Up for Ripping

Don,
If you have a manual for BluOS, you might want to look for a section that describes searching for or selecting your music. I found what appears to be a picture of music library search/select options at their website. See the attached screenshot. At the top of the phone image is the word "Library" and below it are what I believe are the search options. I don't see Artist as an option. Maybe there is a way to customize the options to make Artist appear. It is very strange to me that Artist wouldn't be an option for selecting music to play from your library.