Problems synching to Creative Zen

[tecnodweeb2]

Hi

[I'm posting this in the Beta section because I think that technically that's what I'm using, a beta of dAP - please feel free to move to Support or even Sveta if that's more appropriate]

Background
I just boutght Sveta as I wanted to use the synching feature... once I'd got my head around having to d/l a beta of dAP too, in order to be able to access the feature (bit misleading - it's listed as a feature of Sveta on the products page), I've found that I seem to be encountering the same problems that others ran up against in 2004-2005 - which seems a bit odd.

I've got ~1100 tracks on an external drive (my 'Music Collection') being served by a Linksys NSLU2 which I'm connecting to over WiFi, using a Windows XP SP2 machine which my 60GB Creative Zen Xtra is connected to via USB2.

Some of the tracks (maybe 2/3) are on the Zen already. I want to sync the rest from the Music Collection onto the Zen (and if that works then I want to sync an Mstation/Neo-35 car jukebox up to the Music Collection, but that's for later).

I'm only putting stuff from the Music Collection onto the Zen - I haven't told dAP to take any stuff from the Zen and put it into the Music Collection (and there is extra stuff there as I already manually synced the Mstation to the Zen) - so 'Copy new files to My Music Collection' isn't checked.

I've created a collection of all the tracks on the HD (and in the process of testing I later created a Selective Play of just one album, about 12 tracks, to see if the number of tracks was causing a problem. It wasn't.). I'm doing a [Send As Is], and have the 'Show Files Synchronizing' option checked.

Results
If I use the Sveta Creative driver, the update list generates OK, after a little wait. As soon as I tell it to start, though, 'editor.exe' crashes:

AppName: editor.exe AppVer: 4.0.2.1 ModName: creative jukebox.dll
ModVer: 3.0.0.1 Offset: 00003171

(After this it's impossible to re-open the Collection without closing and restarting dAP)

If I use the WDM driver, the update list generates much faster (indeed, 'at a rate of knots' as someone else has noted), and then once I tell it to start, I almost instantly get an error dialog telling me

'Error(s) whilst Synchronizing:
Unable to send [path to file]
[repeat for all files in update list]'

I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed, as this is the main feature I bought Sveta for, and from other postings it looks like people were reporting these issues a couple years back. :(

[Spoon]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

It was a limitation I ran into (from memory), with the COM object model (how it is called from dAP). Basically Svetas drivers stay alive after transfering one file, to the other. Now in Sveta Explorer this is not a problem, but in dAP it is, as multiple threads can call the send file to jukebox, and this is a no-no for those drivers from creative.

No easy fix I m afraid.

[tecnodweeb2]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

Hmmm. What about having dAP not use multiple threads (i.e. working as presumably Sveta Explorer is?) if it's talking to a portable using the Creative driver - would that work? Slow, I guess, but maybe better than just breaking.
Or altering it so that it cleans up and closes the drivers (though I guess this still wouldn't help with parallel threads, if I understand correctly).

Do you think there ought to be a note about this somewhere - saying that Zen's aren't properly/entirely compatible, I mean? The same as perhaps not putting 'Synchronisation' down as a feature of Sveta, as it appears not to be: it's a feature of another [related] product, and then only in the [long running] beta version?
I'm just a bit peeved that I bought Sveta on the back of this feature (and being very happy with dMC which I bought a while back I trusted it would work as well as that does)... when maybe I should have bought Notmad instead.

But what about the other error with the WDM driver? That gives this cryptic 'Unable to send' message (which at least one other person has had). Presumably this is a different issue, so is there or will there be a fix?

Any chance of a refund if it's not going to work as it says on the tin?

[Spoon]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

The Syncronize part of dAP is not even released, it is part of dAP Beta. Sveta on its own works are described.

[tecnodweeb2]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

The Syncronize part of dAP is not even released, it is part of dAP Beta. Sveta on its own works are described.

That's precisely my point.
On the dbpoweramp 'products' page, under Sveta, the last bullet point reads:

• Synchronize your Audio Collection with portable.

What I'm saying is (and you seem to acknowledge this), 'Synchronize' isn't part of Sveta (despite being listed under Sveta's features... sure you could get pedantic and say one can 'synchronize' with Sveta... manually, LOL... but as that's the point of Sveta anyway I think it rather implies proper Synchronization).
And the product which contains the functionality is itself in Beta (which I didn't find out until after I'd bought Sveta; I just thought it was a feature which I hadn't noticed in the trial).

On the Sveta product page we have:

• Two way Audio Synchronize, with dBpoweramp Audio Player synchronize newly ripped audio files,

- but even that doesn't mention that it's BETA functionality (and so might not work). It's just there, as a feature. Supported.

And once again, do you have any thoughts on why the WDM drivers don't work, and/or if it's going to be fixed? At the end of the day, that's all I'm after.

If you've no intention of addressing the issue, though, then regretfully I really shall have to ask if I can have a refund (on the grounds that I believe the website was at best ambiguous and possibly even misleading)... it's a real shame, as I think dMC is a great product (no complaints there) and want to support you.

[Spoon]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

When batch ripper is completed (around Christmas) Sveta is due for a re-write, new Ipod drivers and WDM.

[tecnodweeb2]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

OK, but that doesn't really answer any of my (repeated) questions:

1) Do you know why the WDM drivers don't work? Third time of asking.

2) When will it be possible to synchronize (using Sveta or dAP or whatever) with a Zen?
If the Sveta re-write isn't *starting* until 'around Christmas', when do you expect to have the finished product (and will it be a free upgrade for registered users... not that I think I wish to remain one, sadly)?

3) Can I have a refund on my Sveta purchase?
It is not fit for the purpose for which it was sold, that is to say it is not possible to do the 'Two way Audio Synchronize' which was listed on the product page.

Point (3) has really become the most pressing for me, now, as I'm really quite disappointed with the offhand manner in which this matter has been handled.

[Spoon]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

The creative drivers (for WDM) were notoriously poor, have you tried Windows Media Player? if that cannot communicate with the Creative, Sveta has no chance.

It does say on the Sveta Page:

Copy Audio back to PC and arrange (order into folders) as required **

** subject to portable device capabilities

It also states on the registration page:

All programs have a full trials, before purchasing check the program functions as required, refunds cannot be given after registered program is downloaded.

Your thoughts?

[tecnodweeb2]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

Yes, Windows Media Player (and indeed Sveta) work fine for transferring files from PC to portable. I wouldn't have bought Sveta if that core functionality didn't work for me in the trial.

I see you've decided to quote bits of the website back at me, now. Sadly, you're not quoting the right bits:

Copy Audio back to PC and arrange (order into folders) as required **

** subject to portable device capabilities

- I'm not trying to copy audio back to the PC (see my original post). I'm trying to synchronise audio from the PC to the player. This fails in two apparently very different ways, possibly indicating two very different problems. I took some care over reporting and describing both sets of symptoms, but you appear to have ignored the information and feedback I've provided.

As you've already admitted, this process doesn't rely on Sveta, but on dAP. And as such I don't see how I could be expected to have tested the functionality from a Sveta trial (it only became apparent *after* purchase that I needed dAP also).
Certainly, I suspect that the statement:

All programs have a full trials, before purchasing check the program functions as required, refunds cannot be given after registered program is downloaded.

would not carry any weight under The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 or the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1994.

My issue, howerver - and the reason I am requesting a refund - is that functionality was claimed for Sveta which we've established it DOES NOT HAVE. Furthermore, this advertised functionality is 'not even released, it is part of dAP Beta' (your own words).
I think you'll find that under The Sale of Goods Act 1979 I have been sold a product which does not (cannot) do as was claimed:

Synchronize your Audio Collection with portable.

- (note the total absence of footnotes) and it is on that basis that I request a refund.

To emphasise my point: I'm not taking issue with the fact that the feature doesn't work, I'm taking issue with the fact that it isn't there. It's not part of the product. You've already admitted this, so I don't see how you can refuse a refund. It does not do what was claimed.

I can understand that your licensing mechanism cannot prevent me from continuing to use the product once such a refund were issued, and I'm more than happy to sign something which says I will destroy all copies and cease to use it.

As a side issue, you seem to continually and rather glibly blame drivers:

and this is a no-no for those drivers from creative.

and

The creative drivers (for WDM) were notoriously poor

- so how exactly is the promised re-write of Sveta supposed to help me? What is it that will be changed which is going to make it possible to synchronise to my Zen?
And when will this new release be available? And will it be a free upgrade for registered users - as it ought to be if it's fixing things which were claimed to work but which never did?
And if you know about the problem (as mentioned, there are posts going back a couple of years about this, I've now found), why isn't it disclosed on the product page? Once again, consumer protection laws would take a dim view, I feel.

I don't expect you'll answer those last questions, but I look forward to discussing arrangements for making the refund.

[LtData]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

Sveta includes free upgrades for the life of the program, so as long as Illustrate continues to develop Sveta, upgrades will be free.

[tecnodweeb2]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

Thanks, LtData.

Although I guess I won't be entitled, because by the time the re-worked Sveta comes out (hmmm, we don't know when that will be... nor if it's going to be any use to me) I'll have returned my Sveta licence, detstroyed all copies, promised not to use it and had my refund, I hope!

[Spoon]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

>promised not to use it

Digital goods cannot work like that, try buying an mp3 track from amazon, then return it and promise not to listen to it again. That is why we have full trials of all our programs. We have to stick to our terms and conditions. If they are unfair why agree to them when purchasing?

This is one of the reasons Sveta will be eventually killed off (in its existing form), we would add support for player XYZ, which by design cannot support everything Sveta offers. Either that or have on the first Sveta page every single WMD device (there are about 150), we would have to test each, show which functions it supports and present in a very large table. Then we could guarantee which functions work (but only on a certain windows version, with exact driver versions, even specific device models and version numbers, iPod 2nd Generation firmware 2.3, see where I am going), or we can do as now, put in bold letters on the purchase page that "ll programs have a full trials, before purchasing check the program functions as required, refunds cannot be given after registered program is downloaded."

[tecnodweeb2]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

<sigh>

It appears that you're still missing the point. :yawn:

I'm not asking for a refund beacuse Sveta doesn't work with my model of player, I'm asking for a refund as per my rights under laws in the United Kingdom and EU (which you are still subject to, I believe, even if you are in the US... in any case the FTC seems to indicate similar rules apply there...).

The issue here is, I believe, quite clear:
1) The Illustrate website claims (in two places) that it's possible to synchronise with Sveta. The second reference does, granted, allude that this is done 'with dBpoweramp Audio Player'.
2) We've established (you have stated on 11/1/07 10:39am) that this functionality is not part of Sveta and that even in dAP, it's not released, it is part of a beta version.
3) It's therefore impossible for you to have sold me the product as you described it (i.e. with synchronise functionality). Even *with* dAP as presently released, I won't be able to synchronise - regardless of what make/model player I have - as the feature just ISN'T THERE.

The legislation which protects consumers against this is called 'The Sale of Goods Act 1979', and basically, if a seller makes false claims for a product, then they are obliged to give a refund.
Similarly, *I* wasn't saying your terms were unfair - the pieces of legislation which say that a seller can't hide flaws or shortcomings in a product behind restrictive coveneants and get-outs which try to transfer liability to the consumer are called The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1994.

Your defence that you offer a trial of the product doesn't work here; how could I possibly test a feature that isn't there?

To continue with your Amazon/MP3 example - which I'd argue isn't exactly the same thing, as it's pretty easy to see whether an MP3 does everything it is advertised to do - but I'll try to make a parallel:
Say Amazon advertised on their website that a song was at a certain bitrate and in stereo. I decide to buy it, in good faith, because I've bought from them before and so have lots of people I know. I trust them, and everything else has worked.
They even gave me a preview sample of the song so I could check it - but this was in some compressed format that only played in mono in my web browser and at a really low bitrate (this is just by way of an example - I know it's not how Amazon works) - but, hey, I know the download I buy will be in stereo, because they're good guys, right?
So I hand over the money and when I get the download.... and guess what, it doesn't work how they said.
Now, if I wrote to them and asked about this, and their excuse was 'oh, no, the high-bitrate stereo stuff isn't released yet... we *did* give you a preview to check, you should have made sure, etc.' - and then gone off on several tangents about how they can't possibly test that things will work with every player (when in point of fact *no* player would handle their track any differently becuase the feature just ISN'T THERE, and the compatability issue is a complete smokescreen).... I think I'd be pretty entitled to want my money back.

I can see your concern that this could be seen to set a precedent for anyone else wanting a refund, but then again the circumstances (clear-cut mis-selling) aren't likely to come up all that often (especially if the Illustrate website is revised), so by doing the 'right thing' here (not to mention the thing you're probably legally obliged to do) you'd hardly be opening yourself up to being ripped off... and you'd be preserving your good reputation, which, if I were one of the hundred-plus folks reading this thread, would be starting to tarnish in my mind.

I leave it to you, as this isn't about the money, it's about the point of principle (I've been sold something which just doesn't do what the seller claimed. That's plain wrong.), but I think this forum thread and the nature of your responses in it will stand as testimony to the true nature of the kind of business that Illustrate is.

[tecnodweeb2]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

Hmmm. No answer. :(

[Spoon]

Re: Problems synching to Creative Zen

Check your Personal Mail on this forum, a message was sent 1 week ago.