Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

[QUOTE=garym;167929]Wav = FLAC = ALAC = lossless!

compression in FLAC doesn't change the above. My suspicion is that the uncompressed FLAC is just something to appease the audiophools that never could understand that lossless = lossless.

I could be in the category of audiophools but I would not have been had I not seen this option
and still wonder what is the advantage of the lossless uncompressed and if that saves on any
CPU processing of the audio so it does not have to be decoded as it is the straight .wav file.

If there is no advantage here then maybe EAC , since it is free, could be the way to go.
Why pay ? I could even still use WMP which does a pretty good job except one cannot
change or modify the directory structures or file naming conventions with those % % flags...
I was thinking DBA had an advantage because of what the audiophools wanted and thus
a reason to pay for it...

Well back to procastinating... you have discouraged me and I may just end up using
WMP or EAC now (I think they did a pretty good job ripping the files and really WMP
is easier for me because I can see all the 6 CD/DVD drives in one application to rip
in parallel. With EAC and DBA, I have to run a process in each desktop to do the
parallel ripping to the hard drive to "speed"the process up than running one rip at a time. )

[mville]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

If there is no advantage here then maybe EAC , since it is free, could be the way to go.
Why pay ? I could even still use WMP which does a pretty good job except one cannot
change or modify the directory structures or file naming conventions with those % % flags...
I was thinking DBA had an advantage because of what the audiophools wanted and thus
a reason to pay for it...

dBpoweramp Music Converter is more than just an audio CD ripper. I advise you read the Products page and these forums in more detail.

Well back to procastinating... you have discouraged me and I may just end up using
WMP or EAC now (I think they did a pretty good job ripping the files and really WMP
is easier for me because I can see all the 6 CD/DVD drives in one application to rip
in parallel. With EAC and DBA, I have to run a process in each desktop to do the
parallel ripping to the hard drive to "speed"the process up than running one rip at a time.

I'm not sure why you have been discouraged. The advice given here is sound, honest advice.

[garym]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

[QUOTE=currter;167935]

Wav = FLAC = ALAC = lossless!

compression in FLAC doesn't change the above. My suspicion is that the uncompressed FLAC is just something to appease the audiophools that never could understand that lossless = lossless.

I could be in the category of audiophools but I would not have been had I not seen this option
and still wonder what is the advantage of the lossless uncompressed and if that saves on any
CPU processing of the audio so it does not have to be decoded as it is the straight .wav file.

If there is no advantage here then maybe EAC , since it is free, could be the way to go.
Why pay ? I could even still use WMP which does a pretty good job except one cannot
change or modify the directory structures or file naming conventions with those % % flags...
I was thinking DBA had an advantage because of what the audiophools wanted and thus
a reason to pay for it...

Well back to procastinating... you have discouraged me and I may just end up using
WMP or EAC now (I think they did a pretty good job ripping the files and really WMP
is easier for me because I can see all the 6 CD/DVD drives in one application to rip
in parallel. With EAC and DBA, I have to run a process in each desktop to do the
parallel ripping to the hard drive to "speed"the process up than running one rip at a time. )

eac is fine. But whatever you do, do not use WMP as a ripper. That's a very bad idea. You should really choose between eac or dbpa. Either will give you bit perfect rips, with ACCURATERIP database matches.

The FLAC compression you are worried about is irrelevant. This "decoding effort" of compressed FLAC files that audiophools worry about is mostly nonsense. Certainly with any modern era player/computer.

Also, an important reason to use flac over wav, is that flac files have built in CRCs. I can easily run a batch program on my 100,000 flac files and determine whether any are corrupt. This is NOT possible with wav files.

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

[QUOTE=garym;167937]

eac is fine. But whatever you do, do not use WMP as a ripper. That's a very bad idea. You should really choose between eac or dbpa. Either will give you bit perfect rips, with ACCURATERIP database matches.

The advantages of using dbapoweramp and / or exact audio copy are
1) each program seems to insert the metadata details into each .flac file generated or
place the album art information in Folder.jpg
2) each program does error correction or can give you information if the rip is secure or insecure
or some information if the CD is slightly damaged or smudged so one can try again or test to
see whether or not there is a problem at a specific location on the CD track

With Windows media player, those rips to flac, I had to seemingly babysit each ripped .flac file to
make sure the metadata pulled from the internet is in each file. I had to select all .flac files then
right click and choose IDTag information and make sure the album art is consistent and applied
to each .flac file and make sure it is not too high resolution as the Sony car stereo seems to have
problems displaying album art images that are above 500x500 (1400x1400 it won't display).

So I do appreciate the automated process EAC and DBA have to offer in that regard.

<sigh> I should really get this started as everything is in place with the pioneer stereo
which has 2 USB ports and an SD slot: so...
Of the 837GB of .wav files I had ripped by early April, I have placed about 477GBs
(Artists A through Mi) on the 480GB Patriot SSD drive or about 11,000 songs ,
I have another 237GBs (Artists Mo through V) on a 250 GB Samsung SSD drive
and the remainder 123GBs (Artists W through Z and Various Artists/Compilations/
Soundtracks) on a 128GB Microcenter microSD card
So this covers the entire collection on 2 hard drives and one micro SD card which
the Pioneer stereo can handle.
And if I used the compression levels (not uncompressed), may even be able to
get the entire collection on 2 SSD drives as I have to worry about the 15,000 song/file
limitation the Pioneer has per drive even if I can get the entire collection on 1 hard drive
using flac.

I am now ready to start "flacking" everything: including CDs by Roberta Flack

Sorry, I had to say that (Roberta Flack on flac).

I think I will just purchase one copy of DBA for Windows on the Macbook and leave it at that
whereas before I was thinking to use it on multiple computers. I see a benefit to having this
software handy, maybe not for multiple Windows computers but just one... Also the Windows
version seems to pick up where I left off if I should close the application: it tells me when I come
back to a CD the status of the rips... the Mac version does not seem to do this (have to start
over again with Mac).

I may see the light as far as the compression levels and would you just say compression level
1 would generate the "largest" file size that would not have to use too much CPU to encode or decode?
Or would that be level 0? As I do not care about disk space at this point.
I also noticed that some CDs DBA takes a long time to rip when there seems to be a problem with the
CD either slightly scratched or a defect in the CD from the manufacturer when I attempted to rip using
uncompressed lossless. Some re-rips took a few hours on one song and it turned out that I could not
hear any problems with the particular track. I had the setting for secure recovery of errors and trying to
analyze the meanings or importance of those AR values some Secure some Insecure with red X.
But for the most part, most rip with Accurate status after 1st pass or 2nd pass.

Thank you for the information.

The FLAC compression you are worried about is irrelevant. This "decoding effort" of compressed FLAC files that audiophools worry about is mostly nonsense. Certainly with any modern era player/computer.

Also, an important reason to use flac over wav, is that flac files have built in CRCs. I can easily run a batch program on my 100,000 flac files and determine whether any are corrupt. This is NOT possible with wav files.

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

I guess I could spend some time, added to the time already wasted or procrastinating ,
to rip a CD or 1 song to each of the 8 or 9 compression modes and analyze the file sizes
for 1 song and come up with an answer for myself and my own knowledge as I am learning
about .flac. (maybe even doing this for each of the various applications: WMP, DBA, EAC) then
compare...
Then I can come up with a level that will make me feel comfortable as I take
on this task and do it "right" the first time (or the second time: first time .wav using iTunes).
I can use the master hard drive of .wav files in case I come into problems and just convert
those .wav files to .flac (example: one test, I had problems ripping 1 song using WMP's flac
converter so I gave up on that song using WMP and used EAC or DBA to rip that 1 .wav song
to .flac and moved it into the appropriate directory for that Artist and CD album folder and
moved on to the next CD).
I am just warming up experimenting with which software I feel most comfortable using
for the entire project & stick to using that one application throughout the entire project (like I did with iTunes)
and be consistent throughout with which ever program and compression level used just as .wav is consistent.
And I would like to do these in parallel since the 6 DVD/CD drives are
connected to the computer (would have had 7 but the superdrive is not working, ejecting the
disc).

WMP I can see all the discs in one thread or in the software and I do not have to run multiple
processes in 6 separate desktops so I can process each CD/DVD drive. I have to do that using
dbpoweramp and I am not sure if there could be a problem running dbpoweramp using 6 processes
going at the same time if each one has to get some offset information from each optical drive
to perform the best rip possible and running all could confuse the program?

I need to stop talking and start doing

[garym]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

Why do you need both windows and Mac versions. Can't you just do all your ripping on the Windows machine?

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

Well, I feel more comfortable using Mac and anything I have for Windows I try to find for Mac.
However it seems DBA works better under Windows so it was a matter of purchasing the
package to run on multiple Windows computers (I am running Bootcamp on 3 Macs : macbook
iMac and macmini and at times I switch between them). I am realizing I do not need all
that so I think just one copy should do (save money in the end ).

The Mac version of dbpoweramp may need to be improved as I did notice a difference with
regard to coming back to a previously ripped CD later after closing the application or removing
the CD and reinserting. Windows brings up the previous information regarding the ripped
flac files. Mac does not seem to do that and it is as if one has to re-rip the CD to get the
information again.

Just for that I feel Windows version is better.

It is just I sometimes do not like using Windows as the operating seems to be more sluggish
compared to Mac and Windows may crash or have hang ups in comparison to Mac.
What I could do is just run stuff under Windows for a while, give it a rest, reboot to clear
things and come back to completing later: just take some breaks and I think I can get through
Windows with this.
But even now, I am procrastinating because I am running Mac OS now doing other things.
I tried using parallels with this and attach the optical drives and hard drives but over time
something hangs or goes awry while on Mac and Windows together.
I have to just boot into windows under the Bootcamp partition and run the software and hardware
all connected under Windows alone.

[garym]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

If your Windows machine is crashing a lot, you have a hardware or software issue. My Windows computers are rock solid. I use win 8.1 on 3 different Windows machines. My wife uses win 10. Are are very stable.

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

It is not a lot ... it is just I really like using Mac more so now since 2012.
Windows does run a bit better on the Mac but maybe for Windows running
platforms, I may need an upgraded, updated machine like from Asus gaming machine
G752-JT or JV something... I had my eye on it for a while even when they had the
G751 series out a while back...


Anyway I have done some comparisons of the ripped flac files at different compression (0 or 1 through 8)
levels and trying to see which way I should go.. probably wasting more time doing this for nothing
or no real benefit. I am even doing some threshold testing (trying levels -1, 9 which caused errors in the EAC program
and 10, 11, 12 which seems to wind around where 10 is really 0 and 11 is 1 , 12 is 2 so the software is probably
ignoring bad input on the command line just some testing from the old AT&T days...


DBPA = dbpoweramp
EAC = Exact Audio Copy
WMP = Windows Media Player


So far it is a toss up between EAC and DBPA , WMP has been weeded out

Test file, song: Feel Like Makin' Love - Roberta Flack 2 minutes 53 seconds long
Number 1 pop, R&B and adult contemporary 1974 (Billboard)
again Roberta Flack "flacked" -> .flac'd short and to the point



It seems as if DBPA generated a smaller .flac file with higher bit rate (797kbps)
but EAC generated a larger .flac file but slightly lower bit-rate (794kbps) (at level 1 compression).
I am not sure what this is going to tell me but I had to do it as I waste more time in analyses.
These things could change from song to song so I am not sure what benefit this is.
Maybe a larger file really means nothing after all if it is all lossless and a higher bit rate is better?
but of course .wav is the best (bit rate-wise) minus the file size disadvantage.
Also maybe the file size differences could be the metadata, album art information... I should have
selected the same size image in the files...oops. oh well, I am still a newbie.
But it seems as if DBPA maximizes the bit-rate with a smaller file size at maybe each of the
compression levels: so goal is to maximize bit-rate (not sure about minimizing file size as I need
to take that metadata out or use the same sized metadata in each file).

I think what I learned from all of this (if I actually learned anything at all)
is I think I will select level 1 compression level (though the experts here recommend level 5 or 6) if I should
go with either software. DBPA does have an advantage as to that proprietary option of uncompressed still
to consider and at a higher bit rate than .wav . See the images.
I can understand that people may choose the compression level based on how much disc space available or
wanting to save to cram more songs onto a hard drive ... so choose the higher level for such.
Since I do not care about disc space, the lower the number (or uncompressed) would be fine for my purposes.
Good night.

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

I either changed the .jpg or Folder.jpg file in the .flac files to be the same and eventually
deleted them all across the board , so I think... the thing is it seemed to change the bit-rate listed
for each song.
I thought it would just decrease the file sizes (obvious, not much or at all), but why would the bit-rate
indications be changed as well? Why would the metadata or images in the .flac file
have anything to do with the waves of the audio data or its bit-rate?

After this, the EAC .flac files now have a higher bit-rate (806) than DBPA (800)... so I could be shifting
my opinion ... DBPA still has advantage of the uncompressed lossless, but now
EAC may have the advantage and it is free especially if one want to use the compression levels.




Maybe Windows is not reporting that bit-rate information accurately
I looked at the Audio properties (tab) and just see some indicator
of the % of compression. Maybe it all does not matter in the end.
level 1 for EAC and DBPA are 44% or 43% compressed I forget which one
I am tired of this analysis probably leading to nowhere.
Lossless is lossless

[garym]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

I hope you realize that all this file size comparison is a complete waste of time. All FLAC files are lossless, regardless of compression level. You are more likely to be abducted by Martians than to detect ANY effect on sound quality of decoding the flac file for playback.

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

I am sorry,... now I am playing with foobar... it seems to be able to take my
current .wav rips I worked on a few months ago and wrap the seemingly correct
album information around the audio files specific to that album and add some basic , pertinent tagging information
hopefully that is compatible with the Pioneer car stereo (I do not think I need song writer information for the
car stereo). This way I do not have to re-rip
all the audio CDs. Maybe dbpa can do the same as well... So far the only thing
I need to do manually is apply the album art in the resulting flac file. I am also
hoping the metadata added to the .wav files will show up on the car stereo.
So far I have not had any luck with that as I would continue to use .wav and
add the tagging information.

I am still exploring how I want to do this and feel comfortable with it all.
I even sent an email to Tag&Rename to see if its software can do anything
with the .wav files already established.

I think the ideal situation would be to continue to use .wav files I feel most comfortable,
and since I already did the work there, and just add the tagging information if it will
be universally compatible across all systems or other devices can read and translate that
information (like the car stereo).

Well back to testing.

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

I hope you realize that all this file size comparison is a complete waste of time. All FLAC files are lossless, regardless of compression level. You are more likely to be abducted by Martians than to detect ANY effect on sound quality of decoding the flac file for playback.

That foobar icon kind of looks like a Martian...
The way I see it, I would rather waste the time now in researching what best way to
go than to choose one method and regret that later. I want to make sure I find the
best way to do this now before embarking on re-ripping 1300 CDs and do it the right
and consistent way throughout the process. I already wasted time for a week ripping to
.wav using iTunes on the Mac... I don't want to do that again (but .wav has worked well for
me and seem enduring standard).

The foobar trick worked with 2 albums... was able to convert to .flac files and
add some metadata, maybe not as detailed with the songwriter information , but
the album, title, track number and I have to manually select all the files and
insert the album art .jpg in the ID Tags section.

So maybe I do not have to re-rip all those CDs again, what a pain to do for a week,
and can just use foobar or maybe even EAC or DBPA ? to take the mass of .wav files
I have under the artist directories and album directories and automate the insertion
of some metadata,conversion to flac (level 1) and become more intimate with the
music to go through and add the album art to each file en masse as I go along.

Finally, I have tried hard to get the metadata in the .wav files to show on the car stereo
and have failed. The information shows on the computer but not external to that.
I am wasting time, but I am trying and will try some other things with .wav before
I give up and concede to .flac in some form (compressed or uncompressed, more likely compressed).
<sigh>
I was in the car to see if I could hear any differences between .wav and .flac
and noticing how it reads the flash drive (that light flickering). The car stereo seems to
keep the audio in memory for both format when repeating a song the light does not flicker.
But .wav would be more data for it to have to hold in memory than a .flac.
I do notice something different with the time bar for flac... flac seems a bit delayed or
at certain parts of the song where I know something happens or an event in the song
at a certain minute:second position, flac does not seem to be accurate there. Maybe it is buffering
some information ahead of time to do the decoding faster, whereas .wav is in real time.

Thank you for your help here as I know I have been a pain with this.

[currter]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

I am analyzing how the bit-rates are for each song
especially for that Roberta Flack CD...
It seems as if there are lower-bit rates for the slower, softer songs
like The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face a *1 pop and adult contemporary song of the year for 1972.
That seems to have one of the lowest...747 kbps maybe because it is a bit of a sleeper track with lots of quiet parts.

The more up tempo songs have higher bit rates maybe because of more complicated
instrumentation and syncopation...
Back Together Again - duet with Donny Hathaway more of a disco flavored tune at 903 kbps
is one of the highest
It kind of makes me wonder how this is related to beats per minute ...

Just some interesting things noticing about the conversion to flac as I go along...

[mville]

Re: Best uncompressed lossless format to rip CD and have tags + cover art

EAC .flac files now have a higher bit-rate (806) than DBPA (800)... so I could be shifting
my opinion ... DBPA still has advantage of the uncompressed lossless, but now
EAC may have the advantage and it is free especially if one want to use the compression levels.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue or prove here. EAC and dBpoweramp use the same official flac libraries

Lossless Uncompressed (followed by compressed level 0) will result in the largest files, with faster encoding/decoding, whereas compressed level 8 will result in the smallest files and slower encoding/decoding. With today's processing speeds and the availability of cheap disk storage, for most users, both these points have become less of an issue.

Also, it is unclear to me why you consider uncompressed flac files to be advantageous.