Up before the beak

[Free Burma]

Until a few years ago when I gave into CD's I had almost 1000 albums on vinyl. Times were hard and I needed the space and ended up selling everything for an absolute pittance.
I can't even remember some of the stuff I used to have, but every now and again I'll see a CD of something I had on vinyl and buy it. Other times (if over the years I've realised the original purchase was an error of judgement) I'll download it from various P2P sites.
If one day I charged under some copyright law, could I use the argument that I have already purchased it? One album I owned on cassette, then vinyl, then CD and have recently downloaded it.
Another point is that music I have downloaded... if I like it I buy it. If I don't like it it just sits on a HD or CD gathering dust.
I know that the last 10 CD's I bought all came as a result of downloading them first. I would not have known about these artists otherwise.
Surely this is a case of illegal downloading working for the industry.
So, Mr. Greedy to sum up... you've charged me for music sometimes 3 times, and the evil Mr. Internet has generated 10 extra sales for you. Also the crap you're churning out that I don't like pretty much vanishes into the ether never to be heard again.
Where do we stand with the law I wonder?

[ChristinaS]

Re: Up before the beak

I am somewhat of the same opinion, although I am aware of the extensive downloading and finagling taking place. Witness the number of posts dealing with encrypted files. I'm willing to bet that 9/10 of those were never purchased by whomever is having trouble with them, but rather, shall we say, "borrowed" or "bought second-hand" and now they are stuck with pretty useless audio files. Of course, there are legitimate instances like when one replaces a computer or reinstalls everything after a crash and loses the licenses. Also people who don't quite understand the workings of those services and therefore get stuck. I prefer to stay away from purchasing such audio files - so far I've managed.

I'd like to see the big (and small) music labels put out an internet listening service for all the artists under their label, whereby you can listen all you want to a song, streamed, protected, maybe low bit-rate, or just a meaningful snippet so it's not too attractive to try to rip it off, etc.

I'd like to hear some such samples maybe just out of curiosity.

I like it, I'll buy it somehow ( I prefer getting the cd to downloads). If I don't like it, I don't bother again with it, and that's that.

No point trying to deter kids from downloading stuff, since their attention span is very short anyway. They'll get a song, listen to it a few times and quickly tire of it as a new minor hit comes out. They'll never make any real money off of these kids anyway. They would never have the money to buy everything that comes out and in the end they'll buy even less than they do now. At least if something is so good, they may eventually buy it.

There's way too much music put out daily, not all of it warranting buying it. This is why the sales are lagging. Some songs may be good to listen to a couple of times, no more. The labels are dreaming if they think that they can sell that better if no p2p downloads were possible. Those recordings will just fade into oblivion, being ignored by everybody equally. As it is, the rare gem may in fact get some success and may even draw some sales.


Well, that's my theory and I stick to it :smile2:

[Spoon]

Re: Up before the beak

Sadly a court of law might not see it that way, the music industry likes to think each new audio format (LP, tape, CD, DVD-A) is a different 'version', a higher quality one. It sucks I know, but that is what happens when an industry becomes all powerful and has politicians in it's pocket, fair use goes out of the window. The future of audio is going to be a battle ground of consumers against DRM (all these Apple DRM .m4a files, they will not play in 10 years time, Apple will not give you the time of day...).

[Free Burma]

Re: Up before the beak

So DRM files will not play in 10 years?!!
That's outrageous!
Okay vinyl gets a little scratched over time, tapes snap and a few of my CD's have actually withered away and won't play, but surely having an expiry date on a product you have paid for can't be right.
Where are our consumer rights?
It seems to be happening with everything though.
There's an old chap in our service department who pretty much just throws most electrical products away. Unlike "the good old days" when you could repair a TV, these days things are designed to be replaced rather than repaired.
In todays consumer led society the big corporations truly have us by the balls.
If we weren't so brainwashed we could stand up to them.
I suppose in a way P2P and piracy is the only kind of action we can take.
It seems a shame that the artists are caught in the middle.
Then again, in the grand scheme of things, there are much greater injustices in the world.
Still gets my back up though.

[Ayla]

Re: Up before the beak

I Know this is an old thread, but still wanted to comment on it.

Does anyone remember when VCR's first became popular? They were these huge clunky things. The "remote" was a little tube shaped thing with a single button on top for you to push to record or stop recording, and it was wired to the VCR. You had to sit very close to the VCR to use it.

What I also remember about that time period was again, there was a big broohaha over royalty rights and such. If you record a movie off of the television and rewatch it later, then the film makers and actors don't get any money for your future enjoyment. Now a days, it's pretty common place to record your favorite movie next time it comes on HBO, or to stick a tape in your radio and record a few songs.

Let's take it even one step further. How many people here have recorded a friends show for them since they wanted to see something very badly but wasn't able to record it themselves? "Hey, The Supranos is supposed to be good this week!" "Dude! Tape it for me! I don't have HBO and usually watch at your place, but have to work that night." "Sure. No Problem." And it's done.

That is a lot like File Sharing to me, except using the old sneakernet method rather than the Internet.

These days though, P2P file sharing is in legislation. You have some judges that liken it to when tapes first came out and people could record. They say who cares? But other judges say otherwise. So a new critter popped up. Pay amonthly fee and you can download all the songs you want. You have to keep paying that monthly fee though or you can't listen to them. And you have to pay another fee on top of that in order to burn them to a CD. Man, if I had to pay a dollar for every song I had taped off of the radio over the years, I'd be broke. Wait a minute...I already am broke so what am I saying? :p

You can't back these files up so if you have to reformat the drive for whatever reason, life sucks. If you buy a new computer, life sucks. Even when you are still paying that monthly fee.

All of that to get to one simple opinion, huh? lol

When you are listening to a song stream through your computer, like an internet radio station, I think you should be able to record that song. Just like from the radio. Using a P2P client to "illegally" download music should be illegal. With an internet radio station, the royalty fees still get paid by the station itself. With P2P, no fees are paid.

There is a small caveat though. Do you go after the guy that downloads say thirty songs in month (average of one per day) or do you go after the guy thatis downloading entire albums every day then bootlegging them? Go after the guy that is bootlegging. He is profiting from someone else's work.

Now these subscription type clients. In my opinion, these are like the paid cable stations such as HBO, Showtime and such. Would a normal viewer be prosecuted for taping movies off of the channels and watching them at their leisure? Doubtfull.

That being said though, there is the notion of honor. What do you consider the more honorable or dishonorable thing to do? For example, I have one of those subscription clients and needed to put everything onto a new system. It wouldn't allow me to without redownloading. Now that I know how to do it and have done it (almost anyway. 256 more songs to go.) will I still keep paying for the service even though I don't download much music anymore and don't have the client on this computer? Yep. Sure will. Why?

Cause I said I would. Yeah, I could cancel the subcription and be done with it, with little to no consequences. But when I look in the mirror the next day would I see a frugal person, or would I see a dishonorable one?

[ChristinaS]

Re: Up before the beak

Frugal? Dishonorable? Hmmm.... I'd say gullible more like, sorry to be so blunt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating cheating in any way. What I'm advocating is staying away from any such deal. Pay on a continual basis to listen to songs you've already downloaded ? pay again to be able to burn them? That makes no sense to me. They are not even cd quality in any case, no matter how good they actually are. By now you'd have bought the original cd's several times over. A burnt cd isn't as high quality as a commercially manufactured one, that has been pressed rather than burnt. It just isn't. No artwork, nothing of the original packaging to show for all the money you've spent. And at 99 cents to burn each song this amounts to as much or more than an original cd.

It seems to me you're only renting the music in this way and paying a very high price for it. That's a good deal? No way. Not even counting the headaches involving what you just described: changing computers or HD, reformatting HD, etc. And I suppose you have to be always connected to the internet to even be able to play them? Such dependency! You won't catch me anywhere near such a scheme.

This has got to be the worst deal of all music download deals, I'm sorry to say :thumbdown

[Ayla]

Re: Up before the beak

Well, at the time that I joined up, I thought "Hey, this is great! I can download music, and it's legal! And only eight something a month." Unlimited downloads and you are supposed to be able to listen to them whether the system is online or not. I think you do have to play each one while online every once in a while to renew their licenses cause occassionally it tells you that you have to be online to listen to that song.

That is where the company makes their money though is fromthe people that want to download the music onto cd's. Or where they thought they would make their money anyway. As it turns out, there aren't many people that want to burn to a disc because, like you said, they've already paid for it once.

Am I gullible? Yeah, probably. But I'm one of those few people that if I say I am gonna do something, I stick to it. I told them I owuld ay them for the "priviledge" of downloading and listening to the music.

They are a pain in the keister though and I'm sure that other music programs are the same way. These programs are an alternative to the whole illegal file sharing fiaso though. For a small flat fee you can download as much as you want to your computer. I have 506 songs on mine which I downloaded all in one day using my school's high speed connection. For less than nine bucks. If you don't want to burn cd's from them, and if you have a high speed connection available to replace any songs that might get lost due to crashes etc, then this is a good alternative to the whole P2P thing.

Frugal? Dishonorable? Hmmm.... I'd say gullible more like, sorry to be so blunt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating cheating in any way. What I'm advocating is staying away from any such deal. Pay on a continual basis to listen to songs you've already downloaded ? pay again to be able to burn them? That makes no sense to me. They are not even cd quality in any case, no matter how good they actually are. By now you'd have bought the original cd's several times over. A burnt cd isn't as high quality as a commercially manufactured one, that has been pressed rather than burnt. It just isn't. No artwork, nothing of the original packaging to show for all the money you've spent. And at 99 cents to burn each song this amounts to as much or more than an original cd.

It seems to me you're only renting the music in this way and paying a very high price for it. That's a good deal? No way. Not even counting the headaches involving what you just described: changing computers or HD, reformatting HD, etc. And I suppose you have to be always connected to the internet to even be able to play them? Such dependency! You won't catch me anywhere near such a scheme.

This has got to be the worst deal of all music download deals, I'm sorry to say :thumbdown

[ChristinaS]

Re: Up before the beak

Ayla, from just about all the "mentionable" music web site from where you can download, you do so legally. But at least you pay once and it's yours. Ok, so maybe it's encrypted and protected in such a way that you are very limited in what exactly you can do with the music. Most of them allow you to burn audio cd's and then that's really yours to do what you please with. Those that don't give that option, well, they aren't worth considering. Anything that limits you and ties you to their own device or service is onerous, after you've paid.

So maybe figure out 10, 15, 20 songs you'd like to keep and buy them for burning and then stop the service. Or don't bother to keep any and just cancel anyway. You'd be coming out ahead. Every 2 months you'd be able to buy one good commercial cd. At least this is what I'd do. You don't have a lifetime contract with them, do you?

There are many other sources of good music on the internet either for listening on demand (for free) or even, in some cases, for downloading for free with no other strings attached. Why? Because the artists are not big name artists (yet) and they are more interested in the exposure than the crumbs they may or may not get from a record label (unless they are hugely popular). Personally if I were to spend any money buying music online, I'd spend it on buying indie music, gems that I discover every day, rather than the big name artists anyway. For those, I'd buy the commercial cd if I cared enough. For everything else, my radio offers plenty of music to my liking on my favourite stations.