burst mode and secure mode results

[DaveO1959]

Hello,

I am new to the forum though I have been using dbPowerAmp for quite some time.

I had left all rip settings to default and so that meant burst mode was enabled and I have been getting positive results as regards Accuraterip. In fact I can't remember the last time I ripped a CD that wasn't classed as accurate.

The first time a CD is "played" in my house is when it is ripped so it is rare for a scratched or defective CD to be ripped anyway.

So, my question is, if I get my rips flagged as accurate when ripped in burst mode why would I use secure mode? I have tried ripping CD's both ways and end up with the same CRC values on the all tracks.

If it makes any difference my drive is an LG BD-RE, HL-DT-ST BH10LS30 which I see according the results posted in sticky at the top of the forum is recording results just less than 98% accurate on average.

I have done a search to see if this question had been answered previously but could not find anything.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

[Brady]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

Secure mode comes in handy when you have an audio CD that is not in the accuraterip database. There would be nothing to match it to if it's not in the database, so you have no way of really knowing if your rip was perfect. If you get a match in accuraterip using burst mode, you would get the exact same match using secure mode, as you've found out.

Also, secure mode allows you to use C2 error pointers (if your drive supports them), which can find errors and report them to the program. Re-reading is also a good feature, which basically re-reads it multiple times and recovers error sectors.

[Oggy]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

Hello,

I am new to the forum though I have been using dbPowerAmp for quite some time.

I had left all rip settings to default and so that meant burst mode was enabled and I have been getting positive results as regards Accuraterip. In fact I can't remember the last time I ripped a CD that wasn't classed as accurate.

The first time a CD is "played" in my house is when it is ripped so it is rare for a scratched or defective CD to be ripped anyway.

So, my question is, if I get my rips flagged as accurate when ripped in burst mode why would I use secure mode? I have tried ripping CD's both ways and end up with the same CRC values on the all tracks.

If it makes any difference my drive is an LG BD-RE, HL-DT-ST BH10LS30 which I see according the results posted in sticky at the top of the forum is recording results just less than 98% accurate on average.

I have done a search to see if this question had been answered previously but could not find anything.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Beginning at the end, sometimes using Google, is the easiest and quickest search method.

If you use Secure, or Ultra Secure, the first pass is the same as Burst Mode, so if it gives an AccurateRip, it stops straight away. If the CD is not in the database, in Secure, it will do a second pass, and if it matches the first pass, give a Secure and stop. This is added security for the few (mostly new) discs not in the database.

The Secure and Ultra Secure modes will only re-rip if it disagrees with the results from the database. This occurs on probably around 5 - 10% of discs, sometimes a brand new pristine disc will have errors! Some new CDs CA get scratched removing them from poorly designed case, or a rough cardboard sleeve. I had a CD that looked pristine the other day, that had 220 frames needing re-ripping on one drive, 26 on a second drive, and 0 on a third!

I only use Burst Mode on a CD with errors that I cannot recover from using Ultra Secure. On error-free discs, I can't see a disadvantage to using Secure or Ultra Secure. If you set it to eject on AccurateRip, you can hear when the ripping is completed, without staring at the screen.

Oggy.

[DaveO1959]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

Thanks to both who replied. The idea of secure mode/ultra secure stopping if the first burst gives the correct accuraterip result makes sense.

However regarding this:

The Secure and Ultra Secure modes will only re-rip if it disagrees with the results from the database. This occurs on probably around 5 - 10% of discs, sometimes a brand new pristine disc will have errors! Some new CDs CA get scratched removing them from poorly designed case, or a rough cardboard sleeve. I had a CD that looked pristine the other day, that had 220 frames needing re-ripping on one drive, 26 on a second drive, and 0 on a third!

Did you have C2 checking on to get 220 frames needing to be re-ripped?

I find contradictory behaviour with C2 switched on.

I ripped a track in burst mode and the checksum was D4863694, accurate (9). I then did the same in ultra-secure, no C2 checking. Same checksum and the rip stopped after one pass.

I then turned C2 checking on. After the first pass it does another as per the ultra secure minimum parameter (I set it to 1) and then it tells me it is going to re-rip [36 frames]. It does so but then calculates the same checksum value. D4863694

How come? First of all the rip was supposedly accurate with no C2 checking. Then if it has corrected errors the value calculated for the particular frame ought to be different so the resultant overall checksum should be as well. It isn't. It is the same value.

[Oggy]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

Thanks to both who replied. The idea of secure mode/ultra secure stopping if the first burst gives the correct accuraterip result makes sense.

However regarding this:



Did you have C2 checking on to get 220 frames needing to be re-ripped?

I find contradictory behaviour with C2 switched on.

I ripped a track in burst mode and the checksum was D4863694, accurate (9). I then did the same in ultra-secure, no C2 checking. Same checksum and the rip stopped after one pass.

I then turned C2 checking on. After the first pass it does another as per the ultra secure minimum parameter (I set it to 1) and then it tells me it is going to re-rip [36 frames]. It does so but then calculates the same checksum value. D4863694

How come? First of all the rip was supposedly accurate with no C2 checking. Then if it has corrected errors the value calculated for the particular frame ought to be different so the resultant overall checksum should be as well. It isn't. It is the same value.

Hi, no C2 on - just happened like that, with that particular disc, on that day! Every now and then, a certain CD will for no apparent reason, need frames re-ripping on my "best" CD drive, and rip first pass, error free on my budget portable drive.

I've also had variable results with C2 pointers enabled. I put it down to the drive not fully supporting C2, and disabled - yours is maybe the same?

[DaveO1959]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

I've also had variable results with C2 pointers enabled. I put it down to the drive not fully supporting C2, and disabled - yours is maybe the same?

I assume so but the question is really why does the CD ripper go on to make a C2 pass at all if the accuraterip checksum is deemed accurate earlier in the process?

I switched the options to use ultra secure and yes if the burst mode pass yields an accurate rip it goes no further but if I set then C2 on as well it does the burst mode - gets an accurate result, then does a pass in ultra secure mode - gets an accurate result again but still goes into do do C2.

I'd have expected it to stop after the successful result being obtained in burst mode regardless of ultra-secure and C2 being set, not do all three.

[garym]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

I assume so but the question is really why does the CD ripper go on to make a C2 pass at all if the accuraterip checksum is deemed accurate earlier in the process?

I switched the options to use ultra secure and yes if the burst mode pass yields an accurate rip it goes no further but if I set then C2 on as well it does the burst mode - gets an accurate result, then does a pass in ultra secure mode - gets an accurate result again but still goes into do do C2.

I'd have expected it to stop after the successful result being obtained in burst mode regardless of ultra-secure and C2 being set, not do all three.

Hmmm, something is odd on your end. I have drives that use C2 and some that don't. But in both cases, they are setup with ultrasecure, and if there is an accuraterip match first, it stops after that.
(but perhaps you mean the following: sometimes it does one pass, gets a match then stops. Occasionally, it does one pass, then does another pass, then shows accurate match. But it doesn't show accurate match after the first pass, only the 2nd. I'm not sure what you mean by the "C2 pass". I never see such reference. One can have C2 checking turned on (or not), but the feedback while ripping just reports the passes and then if it is rereading frames, if needed. the ripper sometimes rereads frames even if C2 checking is not turned on (i.e., rereading frames is NOT a "C2 pass".

[DaveO1959]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

Hmmm, something is odd on your end. I have drives that use C2 and some that don't. But in both cases, they are setup with ultrasecure, and if there is an accuraterip match first, it stops after that.
(but perhaps you mean the following: sometimes it does one pass, gets a match then stops. Occasionally, it does one pass, then does another pass, then shows accurate match. But it doesn't show accurate match after the first pass, only the 2nd. I'm not sure what you mean by the "C2 pass". I never see such reference. One can have C2 checking turned on (or not), but the feedback while ripping just reports the passes and then if it is rereading frames, if needed. the ripper sometimes rereads frames even if C2 checking is not turned on (i.e., rereading frames is NOT a "C2 pass".

By C2 pass I mean what happens is this:

Pass 1 - bust mode pass, CRC calculated is accurate
Pass 2- ultra secure (configured as minimum 1 pass), CRC is reported as accurate again after one further pass
Pass 3 - sectors re-ripped (for example 37 sectors get re-ripped as they have been reported as in error)

This only happens if I turn on the C2 error checking.

If I don't have C2 turned in then it stops after Pass 1 because the checksum is deemed accurate, even if I have ultra secure turned on, which is what I would expect.

[garym]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

seems odd to me. For me, no matter what, with "ultra secure" ticked, if there is an AR match, it stops and doesn't move on. See attached picture for my settings.

[mville]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

By C2 pass I mean what happens is this:

Pass 1 - bust mode pass, CRC calculated is accurate
Pass 2- ultra secure (configured as minimum 1 pass), CRC is reported as accurate again after one further pass
Pass 3 - sectors re-ripped (for example 37 sectors get re-ripped as they have been reported as in error)

This only happens if I turn on the C2 error checking.

If I don't have C2 turned in then it stops after Pass 1 because the checksum is deemed accurate, even if I have ultra secure turned on, which is what I would expect.

It is apparent, that with C2 error pointers enabled, you are getting unpredictable results. I think it is safe to assume that your drive does not support C2 error pointers, so disable the feature.

[garym]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

It is apparent, that with C2 error pointers enabled, you are getting unpredictable results. I think it is safe to assume that your drive does not support C2 error pointers, so disable the feature.

I agree. and note that even if a drive manufacturer reports that a drive handles C2 error reporting, in many cases I've found, the implementation is not good (and dbpoweramp essentially requires correct implementation of C2 errors, not the half-baked implementation that some drives have). And don't forget that if you get AccurateRip confirmation, then C2 error reporting is irrelevant. The AR match is more than just strong evidence of bit perfect rip!

[DaveO1959]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

seems odd to me. For me, no matter what, with "ultra secure" ticked, if there is an AR match, it stops and doesn't move on. See attached picture for my settings.

I tried the same settings and got the same weird results as I got previously.

Untick C2 and it stops after the first pass with an accurate rip.

I still think there's something fishy going on here though and a potential bug with the program. If the checksum is correct after the first pass (which it is) why is going into the ultra secure passes at all?

Even if my drive is not reporting C2 errors correctly, why is it ignoring a correct checksum? Sure there could be an anomaly here i.e. checksum correct yet C2 errors reported but it is as if the program is not checking the checksum against the accuraterip database at all if a C2 error is flagged. Given the documentation states C2 error checking isn't infallible even when correctly implemented I find this behaviour very odd.

[garym]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

I tried the same settings and got the same weird results as I got previously.

Untick C2 and it stops after the first pass with an accurate rip.

I still think there's something fishy going on here though and a potential bug with the program. If the checksum is correct after the first pass (which it is) why is going into the ultra secure passes at all?

Even if my drive is not reporting C2 errors correctly, why is it ignoring a correct checksum? Sure there could be an anomaly here i.e. checksum correct yet C2 errors reported but it is as if the program is not checking the checksum against the accuraterip database at all if a C2 error is flagged. Given the documentation states C2 error checking isn't infallible even when correctly implemented I find this behaviour very odd.

Spoon needs to chime in on this. I doubt this is a program bug. I've never seen a similar problem reported in the years I've been hanging out at this forum. Given the thousands of users, if this was a bug in the program, others would report similar problems.

I assume you are seeing this happen with multiple CDs, not just a single CD. And you should also test with a different drive as well to make sure there is not some problem with your drive (this is my suspicion by the way). (having a second or third drive is often useful as some CDs that won't rip correctly on one drive often rip fine on a different drive. These don't have to be expensive. Sometimes a $5 garage sale drive will rip a CD that a much more expensive drive won't rip securely.)

[mville]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

I still think there's something fishy going on here though and a potential bug with the program. If the checksum is correct after the first pass (which it is) why is going into the ultra secure passes at all?

I doubt there is a bug either, just that the behaviour is unpredictable if you enable C2 error pointers for a drive that does not support C2 error pointers (or for a drive that claims to support C2 error pointers but the firmware has bugs).

So, if you disable C2 error pointers and rip CDs, do you experience any issues?

[Arbie]

Re: burst mode and secure mode results

If you use Secure, or Ultra Secure, the first pass is the same as Burst Mode, so if it gives an AccurateRip, it stops straight away. If the CD is not in the database, in Secure, it will do a second pass, and if it matches the first pass, give a Secure and stop. ... The Secure and Ultra Secure modes will only re-rip if it disagrees with the results from the database.

On my drives CD Ripper in Secure mode does not stop after the first pass finds an AccurateRip. I have all default Secure settings (incl C2 disabled). I ripped a disk in Burst mode and all rip status was "Accurate". Without removing the disk, I then tried Secure mode. Every track required 2 passes, coming up with the same CRCs as Accurate.

[Resurrecting an old thread since nothing seems to have changed and there's relevant info above].