Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

[Alepsis]

Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

I'd like to understand how Asset 5.1 deals with multiple field values in FLAC tags. (From elsewhere in the forum I understand that some -- but not all -- fields are allowed to contain multiple values.)

Here's an example of a metaflac text dump of tags from a FLAC file:

TITLE=Christmas Eve
ALBUM=Bax: Symphony 1; Christmas Eve
ARTIST=Bryden Thomson
DESCRIPTION=
COMPILATION=0
COMPOSER=Arnold Bax (1883–1953)
DISCTOTAL=1
DISCNUMBER=1
GENRE=Classical
GROUP=Christmas Eve (1912, rev. 1921)
TRACKTOTAL=4
TRACKNUMBER=4
DATE=1986
ENCODER=flac 1.1.2 (Darwin 7.9.0)
ARTIST=London Philharmonic Orchestra
ARTIST=Malcolm Hicks
GENRE=Orchestral
GENRE=20th Century

(The ARTIST and GENRE tags contain multiple values.)

My questions:

1. Which tags does Asset allow to contain multiple values?

2. Do a tag's multiple values have to be sequential (one following the other) or not (as in the example above)?

3. How does Asset evaluate them, alphabetically or by position? In the example above, GENRE alphabetical would be "20th Century"/"Classical"/"Orchestral"; by position, the order would be "Classical"/"Orchestral"/"20th Century"?

4. How are multiple values displayed in the browse tree? For instance, if I navigate Asset's browse tree by ALBUM and get to the example above, what would be shown for ARTIST? Just the first value ("Bryden Thomson"), or all three values concatenated, with a separator?

5. Can multiple values be used in Dynamic Browsing? For instance, could I reach the item above by browsing GENRE=Classical, then GENRE=Orchestral, then GENRE=20th Century?

[mville]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

1. Which tags does Asset allow to contain multiple values?

for flac:

ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
GENRE
SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
STYLE

2. Do a tag's multiple values have to be sequential (one following the other) or not (as in the example above)?

Does this not depend on the tagging software?

3. How does Asset evaluate them, alphabetically or by position? In the example above, GENRE alphabetical would be "20th Century"/"Classical"/"Orchestral"; by position, the order would be "Classical"/"Orchestral"/"20th Century"?

I don't understand this question.

4. How are multiple values displayed in the browse tree? For instance, if I navigate Asset's browse tree by ALBUM and get to the example above, what would be shown for ARTIST? Just the first value ("Bryden Thomson"), or all three values concatenated, with a separator?

Neither, I would expect to see 3 separate Artist values because Artist is a multi-value tag.

5. Can multiple values be used in Dynamic Browsing? For instance, could I reach the item above by browsing GENRE=Classical, then GENRE=Orchestral, then GENRE=20th Century?

I don't know.

[Alepsis]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

Does this not depend on the tagging software?

No. The issue is how Asset evaluates the tags. For instance, one possibility is that, having parsed the first ARTIST tag, Asset goes on to the next tag, and, if that tag is not ARTIST, assumes that ARTIST has only one value, and ignores subsequent ARTIST tags.

I don't know.

Thanks, I guess only Spoon has all the answers to these questions...

[mville]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

No. The issue is how Asset evaluates the tags. For instance, one possibility is that, having parsed the first ARTIST tag, Asset goes on to the next tag, and, if that tag is not ARTIST, assumes that ARTIST has only one value, and ignores subsequent ARTIST tags.

Artist will contain either a single data value e.g. Bryden Thomson
or multiple separated data values, if the tag has been defined as a multi-value tag e.g.
Bryden Thomson; London Philharmonic Orchestra; Malcolm Hicks (as displayed in dBpoweramp)
or
Bryden Thomson\\London Philharmonic Orchestra\\Malcolm Hicks (as displayed in MP3Tag).

Note, the use of different separators in dBpoweramp and MP3Tag, determines whether the tag is a multi-value tag.

Asset will read the Artist tag, determine the data accordingly and build it's database. No Artist data will be omitted.

I think using the metaflac text dump is confusing as this is just a display of the data, not a representation of how the data is held within the file.

I hope I have explained this simply enough.

[mville]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

What software did you use to build/tag your flac library?

[Spoon]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

Dynamic browsing only needs a single match, so if has multiple genres, only one needs to match.

[Alepsis]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

Dynamic browsing only needs a single match, so if has multiple genres, only one needs to match.

Thanks; what about the other questions?

TIA

[Alepsis]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

(as displayed in dBpoweramp)

Therein our letters do not well agree. Those separators are simply indications for the respective apps that the respective strings are separate values, rather than a single value. They do not bear any relation to how the data is written within the file.

I think using the metaflac text dump is confusing as this is just a display of the data, not a representation of how the data is held within the file.

IMHO, you're dead wrong there. Take a peek inside a FLAC file with a hex editor. (I could post a screen shot, but it looks like I'm either not allowed to post images, or Firefox has a bug.)

What software did you use to build/tag your flac library?

Metaflac. Which, coming, as it does, from Josh Coalson, the developer of FLAC, is, to my mind, pretty much it.

[Spoon]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

Thanks; what about the other questions?

TIA

Which questions are unanswered? mville has answered the others.

[mville]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

Those separators are simply indications for the respective apps that the respective strings are separate values, rather than a single value. They do not bear any relation to how the data is written within the file.

Correct. However, it is of no concern to end users, how data is written within a file.

IMHO, you're dead wrong there. Take a peek inside a FLAC file with a hex editor.

Sorry, dead wrong about what exactly?

Your original question was about Asset evaluating multi-value tags and you had concerns that Asset would ignore data. I am just trying my best to answer those concerns.

IMO, end users don't need to be concerned with the inner workings of Asset or file formats at a binary/hex level. Only, whether Asset supports multi-value tags and the answer is yes.

That is why I thought it was confusing, not for me or yourself, but rather for other users that may come across the thread.

FYI, I have looked inside many flac files.

Metaflac. Which, coming, as it does, from Josh Coalson, the developer of FLAC, is, to my mind, pretty much it.

I remember metaflac from awhile back, command-line editor wasn't it?

... ah, found it in my flac-1.3.1-win download.

... ... is there a GUI for it these days?

[Alepsis]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

Which questions are unanswered? mville has answered the others.

2. Do a tag's multiple values have to be sequential (one following the other) or not (as in the example above)?

3. How does Asset evaluate them, alphabetically or by position? In the example above, GENRE alphabetical would be "20th Century"/"Classical"/"Orchestral"; by position, the order would be "Classical"/"Orchestral"/"20th Century"?

4. How are multiple values displayed in the browse tree? For instance, if I navigate Asset's browse tree by ALBUM and get to the example above, what would be shown for ARTIST? Just the first value ("Bryden Thomson"), or all three values concatenated, with a separator?

[Alepsis]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

dead wrong about what exactly?

About this:

[...] the metaflac text dump is confusing as this is just a display of the data, not a representation of how the data is held within the file.

The metaflac dump is pretty close to "a representation of how the data is held within the file".

you had concerns that Asset would ignore data.

Right. The problem is, your example doesn't really answer my concern.

If the tags are all written once, as in your example, then there is no problem. Multiple values follow one another, sequentially.

However, tags can also be written in FLAC files in a different way.

Metaflac has the option of padding the tags block with nulls. If the tags values are changed later, instead of re-writing the entire file, only the tags block needs to be re-written. If the FLAC file is tagged today, and then, a year later, another value is added for the GENRE tag (as in my example above), the new GENRE value is not inserted after the old one, but at the end of the tags, where the padding begins. If Asset reads such a tags block, and assumes that multiple values must follow each other, then such a value would be ignored, or perhaps it would replace the first value.

Now, my library (4498 albums, according to Asset) was not started yesterday, but quite a few years ago. Over the time, being human and therefore fallible, I've been neither constant nor consistent in my tagging. I'd like to revise and straighten out the tagging. If Asset reads the tags correctly, wherever they are within the tags block, then, in addition to corrections, spelling, etc, all I have to do is add the new tags. But if it expects to find them sequentially, then I'll have to dump the tags, sort them by tag names, then write them back to the FLAC file. I do this with scripts, but I'd much rather use a simple script, if possible.

is there a GUI for it these days?

Sorry, I've no clue, I use scripts or the CLI. Anyway, I use the Win machine only as a server. My working machine is a Mac.

[Spoon]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

>2. Do a tag's multiple values have to be sequential (one following the other) or not (as in the example above)?

They do not have to be.


> 3. How does Asset evaluate them, alphabetically or by position? In the example above, GENRE alphabetical would be "20th Century"/"Classical"/"Orchestral"; by position, the order would be "Classical"/"Orchestral"/"20th Century"?

Alphabetic.

> 4. How are multiple values displayed in the browse tree? For instance, if I navigate Asset's browse tree by ALBUM and get to the example above, what would be shown for ARTIST? Just the first value ("Bryden Thomson"), or all three values concatenated, with a separator?

IF you have multiple genres, they are all shown separately, for artist there is an option which excludes a contributing artist from the main artist tree.

[mville]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

If the tags are all written once, as in your example, then there is no problem. Multiple values follow one another, sequentially.

However, tags can also be written in FLAC files in a different way.

Yes, I know. Those examples you refer to were to highlight the use of different tag editors, that is all.

The simple point I am trying to make is this. Regardless of which tagging software is used, as long as it correctly adheres to the tagging specification for the edited file, it is irrelevant (and of no concern to the end user) how it appears in the file and Asset should be able to read all tags correctly.

[mville]

Re: Asset 5.1, FLAC, Multiple Tags

Now, my library (4498 albums, according to Asset) was not started yesterday, but quite a few years ago. Over the time, being human and therefore fallible, I've been neither constant nor consistent in my tagging. I'd like to revise and straighten out the tagging. If Asset reads the tags correctly, wherever they are within the tags block, then, in addition to corrections, spelling, etc, all I have to do is add the new tags.

This is probably true for most users building an audio library.

But if it expects to find them sequentially, then I'll have to dump the tags, sort them by tag names, then write them back to the FLAC file. I do this with scripts, but I'd much rather use a simple script, if possible.

End users shouldn't have to jump through hoops when editing tags. Server/player software should be written to accommodate all scenarios.