Volume Control Problems

[^Shyone379]

After experiencing many many problems with my recorded/converted volume levels, and reading and reading information supplied, trying various methods with dsp settings and without, with Graphic equalizer and without, i tried the following steps;

I selected mp3 files converted both by dbpoweramp and other Programs, at various kbps of high encoding and constant Bit rate (no Presets) and ran them through DAP player taking note of VU levels shown. (Any Equalizer settings or Boost used in playback does not effect the VU Meter level shown of the source file playing, however in this test No equalizers were operational).

The files selected peaked at 0db (DAP VU Meter).

I then took the same files and ran them through Audigy Player/Analyzer, again taking note of levels shown.

The Volume levels displayed for these files by both the players appeared to be the same and accurate.

I then took a selection of those files used and ran them thru the poweramp converter using No Graphics Equalizer and the ONLY DSP function being Simple Normalize, set at 100% or 0db.

According to instruction and theory, this dsp effect should raise only, any files that are BELOW the 0db level,, and in this case, as the VU meter on DAP showed these files to be already at 0db, there should be either little or No change.

After converting at the aforementioned settings, the selected files were then played back through the DAP Player, again taking note of the VU levels shown.

The VU levels showed that there was now an increase in volume over all the files selected, to an average increase of 5.5db on the VU meter (nearly red lining off the DAP player meter).

I then took these same new converted files and played them through Audigy, likewise taking note of the Volume Levels.

The reading in Audigy was again consistent with the Dap Player reading, in that the files were now at an average of 5.5db higher volume.


Playing these same files in both DAP Player and Audigy produced Over Volume distortion on playback. (No Clipping).

Running the files back thru dbpoweramp Converter with no other settings than Volume quieten to reduce the file Vol by 5.5db, produced files that again played in both players without any Over Volume Distortion, and peaking at 0db.

It therfore appears that the discrepency difference between the DAP Player Volume Settings and the Converter Volume settings are causing the majority of the Volume problems myself and other people are consistently having.

As The DAP player Volume (VU) levels and meter appear to coincide with Audigy and other player levels, the problem appears to me to be that the Converter Volume (100% or 0db) settings level need to be calibrated properly to that of the DAP Player VU Meter.

If this is done, I feel that many of the experienced Playback/Converter Volume problems we suffer will have disappeared.

Hope this helps Guys.

[Spoon]

Re: Volume Control Problems

The VU is an average loudness, where as dMC Volume normlize is peak to peak. dMC will get Replay gain one day which is average loudness.

[^Shyone379]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Sorry , I don't understand that, the VU meter shows the actual sound level throughout the track including its lowest and peak (how can it average a note that is playing) ????
All I know is if I convert to the VU meter level 0 peak, I don't get volume distortion, but I do if I Just use normalize settings. Why is this so hard to explain that if I convert my files to normalize 100% or 0db.... I ruin them (or they sound like it on the Player) by distorting.

a CD ripped at Normalize 100% or 0db is Too Loud and plays at +6db peak on the Vu Meter (distorted).

I'm about to give up guys.
We have problems with Convert/playback Vol levels and get Non-answers.

If you are stating that the recorded/converted Volume levels are correct at 100% or 0db, then that means the DAP Player levels are wrong and distort the file at that level of Recorded Volume on playback... you can't have it both ways.....

There remains a problem!, and I don't think it's the player.

[^Shyone379]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Upon reading back through your supplied HELP Files, it appears that it is the "Simple Volume Normalize" that is Averaged.

I see also here in forum where others have questioned why their CD's produced from poweramp Converter files are louder than other systems (to be told it was just that yours was better), does this NOT suggest to you that the average used in Simple Volume Normalize is TOO HIGH ?? It does to me.

A set recorded db level on any system should remain the same ( 0db is 0db, wherever it is).

The questions asked of you there, appear to directly relate to the problems that I am trying to rectify.

I again suggest that DAP (player) and dbConverter need to be calibrated to the correct level, which may mean reducing the overall AVERAGE used in "Simple Volume Normalize".

Volume Control/Normalize has been an ongoing problem of dbpoweramp for quite some time and remains one of the basic core functions of any such system, Nail this one properly guys as it is pivotal whether dbpoweramp is to become "Second to None" or an also ran.

Should you Not wish to consider my suggestions and findings seriously, then please do not waste our time with non-sensical, remote, fob-off answers.

[Spoon]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Are you able to post screen shots? show the problem?

[xoas]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Shyone-
I understand your frustration with what you perceive to be inadequate response to some of your postings. In case you don't already know this, I would like to restate the following:

To forestall a potential misunderstanding let me mention that dBpowerAMP is pretty much entirely the work of Spoon. While we have many users with lots of valuable experience and insights, we don't feature trained, paid staff with access to troubleshooting manuals and so forth. Even those of us "blessed" with the title dBpowerAMP Staff are unpaid untutored forum participants who help out as we can. I mention this only because we sometimes have people posting who don't have an understanding of this and approach the forum the same way people might approach the Tech Support staff of a large commercial software corporation. So please keep in mind, we are only users, just like you, but if we choose to respond it is to do what we can to help people like you, to help out Spoon and to help improve our understanding of the potential of this software as well.

(this was originally posted when certain folks, yours truly included had the honorific title of dBpowerAMP staff added to our signatures; some of these meritorious folks now have the title of Moderator while I have adopted the label of avid avocationalist which-"catchy" alliteration aside-more clearly reflects my true credentials in this area).

Anyway, there will be times when you might receive replies that are off the mark. I have at various times both given and received replies that were off the mark and I have, at times, made reports that were off the mark as well (in that I was reporting a real problem but incorrectly attributing it to the wrong cause). I have developed both a deep respect for most of those who post here whichever side of the consumer with problem vs. potential helper side of the relationship they are on. As to the few exceptions, all I can advise is patience. And for the others, when they/we are off-target, I would ask your patience as well.

Best wishes,
Bill

[^Shyone379]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Spoon: I don't understand what screen shots will do ( If I did know how to post them)
I believe i have explained the situation reasonably well, ie:

A file, irrespective of it's bit rate etc or codec that is recorded and peaking at 0db, can be played on DAP and other players and it shows at 0db peak on the VU meter, if that same file is run through DMC with no other effects or Graphic Equalizer other than Simple Volume Normalize set at 100% or 0db, the file will then playback in either player with an average of 5.5db increase in volume... in many cases causing an over volume distortion.

[^Shyone379]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Bill, my apologies for my unintended inferal that volunteer assistance was inadequate.
I was aware that many forum/Admistration users are in the same position as myself, and are only trying to assist by sharing their knowledge and experience... this is much appreciated by me.

Spoon...... Increase their Wages!

I believe most of the misunderstandings or inadequate replies in my case, seem to be the result of Not Reading the posting properly,,, replies ask questions when the answers have already been given to the best of my ability and clarity.

I likewise believe dbpoweramp has enormous potential, that's why i use it, and feel that this wide felt concern over Volume problems is hampering dbpoweramp from reaching that potential.

Best wishes and Thanks,

^Shyone379

[Spoon]

Re: Volume Control Problems

There is a reason for vague replies, look through 1000's of messages reoported on this forum, cannot convert this, that or the other. 99% are possibly corrupt files, if there were 100x more hours in the day I could follow up each one in depth.

Real bugs get reported and normally it takes two independant reports for it to be picked up as a bug and be fixed, unless the person reporting the bug is prepared to do the leg work. It sounds like you might be onto something, but I need help because of the 100's of test files I have normalizes never has one clipped. If you are able to send a small test file, before and after I can look in to it:

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/email.htm

[xoas]

Re: Volume Control Problems

I think that I might be able to shed some light on this.

^shyone has been working on creating mp3 files whose peak recording levels do not exceed 0 dB. He has been using the VU meters in some of the dAP skins and VU meters available through Audigy to measure his dB levels. He has confirmed that their measurements agree. He has outlined a procedure for accomplishing this result here:

http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showpost.php?p=40977&postcount=11

His goal is to try to use volume normalization set for 0 dB to try to maximize sound intensity without exceeding 0 dB peak intensity. His experiments, well documented, have shown that using simple adaptive normalization set at 0 dB will, in the case of files whose intensity has been adjusted so that peak intensity is 0 dB as measured on a dAP/Audigy VU meter, result in a significant decibel gain (about 4.5 to 5.5 dB) and significant peaking beyond the 0 dB threshhold. I had prepared some files according to the procedures which ^shyone documented in the above-referenced post and my findings do, in fact agree with his. What I further found, however, was also interesting.

Say we take an original cd (source) and rip a track to mp3 320 kbs cbr with no dsp (copy a). Say we take copy a and add the various dsp effects outlined by ^shyone to achieve peak levels that do not exceed 0 dB (copy b). Say we take copy b and add simple volume normalization set at 0 dB (copy c). And further, let's imagine we also made a copy of copy a applying simple volume normalization set at 0 dB (this will be copy d). In this experiment I found that copy B (the one whose peak intensity would be no more than 0 dB) seemed to be about 4-5 dB lower in overal intensity than either the source or any of the other copies. I found that copy C seemed to match copy d in intensity. I found that average intensity of source, copy a, copy c and copy d appeared to be pretty much equal. Peak intensity was slightly higher for copies c and d (the ones made with simple volume normalization) but only slightly.

I further researched and found this article regarding dB levels and VU meters:

http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/VU_Meter.html

I would urge the uninitiated to review this. The gist of this article is to explain that the 0 0 dB level is suposed to represent the peak intensity for recording beyond which distortion occurs. In analog recording (like when you record on your tape deck, there is actually some additional "headroom" built in above the 0 dB level before you achieve distortion. In digital recording there is supposed to be much less headroom. So when ^shyone is expressing concern about distortion, this is based on peak recording levels surpassing the 0 dB level as measured by the dAP and Audigy VU meters. I am not sure whether, in addition to this, ^shyone is experiencing audible distortion. In my experiments I have not. In certain tracks I found that even source recording tracks were recorded with peaks significantly above the 0 dB level as measured by dAP (sometimes with average intensities of around 0 dB).

I do wonder, and perhaps Craze or Spoon can shed some light on this, whether the VU meters for dAP tend to represent more of an analog type VU meter or more of a digital recording VU meter.

I don't know if this clarifies or confuses, but I hope it helps decipher this issue.

Best wishes,
Bill

[Craze]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Hi Bill,

An interesting discussion here.

I think Spoon answered the question back in post #2 of this thread stating that dMC uses peak to peak metering vs average metering from dAP. Some simple, but basic theory may be needed here in order to understand the difference between the two a little better. The results are what you both have stated in your testing.
[color=#800080]http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/ModElec/acee/lessonMain.asp?iNum=0102[/color]

Anyone researching VU meters will find them to be very complex in theory and differing from one application to another. A can of worms, so to speak, that may be best left to an expert, which I'm not.

I really couldn't tell you with any certainty which type (analog or digital) dAP VU meters represent. But my best guess would be digital since we're not using tape. Only Spoon would know for sure what the Skin Designer software designation for VU's really is.

I don't know if dAP ever was intended to have calibrated looking VU meters as they were not present in the Default skin. However, there was an option for adding them from within the Skin Designer. I'm at least comforted to know that mine seem to be inline with the Audigy product.

I would be interested in knowing which skin(s) was being used for the tests.
I usually don't normalize preferring to leave the dynamic range as is.

Hope this is helpful.
Best wishes.
-Craze

[xoas]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Craze-
Thank you for the reference. Very interesting.

I would be interested in knowing which skin(s) was being used for the tests.

Speaking for myself I relied primarily upon Studio Pro and The Studio although I also worked some with Golden Wonder. All gave similar results.

I suppose my question about analog vs. digital vu-meter-wise iserhaps a bit niaive. What I am really asking about is whether there is the extra headroom over the 0dB mark for the dAP VU meter before you hit distortion levels (as my earlier cited source indicates would be true of analog recording) or not. My ears and experience suggests the headroom is there, at least for regular everyday users. But again, I don't usually rely upon normalization myself,

Best wishes,
Bill

[Spoon]

Re: Volume Control Problems

Thanks xoas, I will give this the fullest of my attention when Sveta and dMC R11.5 are released (they have top priority right now).

[Spoon]

Re: Volume Control Problems

>asking about is whether there is the extra headroom over the 0dB mark for the dAP VU meter

That would depend upon the skin, a 0db on a skin (if it has +5db above that) is just a representation, dAP cannot VU anything that is clipping, digital does not work like that. Looking at the wave form in an audio editor and zooming right in will visually show if it clips, it will be a flat line at maximum or minimum.

[xoas]

Re: Volume Control Problems

I have been looking at some wave forms to compare files converted without Normalization (or other DSPs), converted with Simple Volume Normalization set at 0 dB,
converted with the ^shyone DSP formula, and the file produced by the 6shyone dsp formula reconverted with simple volume normalization at 0 dB.

I have looked at 4 sets of files. 2 of these files were from a source CD which was recorded with high intensity. In both cases the wave form for the wav ripped from source with no dsp had spikes that would hit the 100% (+ or -) intensity level but there was no audible clipping and no apparent flat lines. The same file ripped using simple volume normalization set at 0 dB had virtually an identical profile as the original (at least to my untrained eyes). These files had exactly the same frequency of spikes into the + or - 100% intensity levels as the files ripped without volume normalization.
The files ripped with the ^shyone formula showed a certain degree of compression with no spikes higher than maybe 55% intensity (+ or -). When the ^shyone files were reconverted these files had a little less spiking into the 100% (+ or -) intensity bars compared to the first two types of files.

The other 2 sets of files were made using a MMC source ripped without DSP of quieter tracks. I converted these to wav without DSP, to WAV with simple volume normalization set at 0 dB, converted to wav using the ^shyone formula and then I reconverted the file made from the ^shyone formula with simple volume normalization set at 0 dB. Even with these tracks, there were a few instances where intensity of the source file would spike into the 100% intensity bar but no apparent flatlining of the wave form and no audible distortion. Again the file produced through the conversion with the ^shyone DSP formula had a much reduced intensity level overall. But here those sasme files reconverted with simple volume normalization set at 0 dB seemed to produce signal intensities closer to the files direct from source without DSP and from source with simple volume normalization set at 0 dB.

If anyone wants to look at these wave forms, I would be happy to share them.

Admittedly, this is a ridiculously small sample of music for making any kind of sweeping generalization and I would welcome suggestions as to what types of music would be worth testing (keeping in mind my "wages"). I also I do not know about ^shyone's requirements where it comes to sound levels (he has mentionned involvement in broadcasting and so he may have more stringent needs than the average home user). But I certainly don't think the average user needs to worry about generating distortion using dMC's simple volume normalization set at 0 dB.

Best wishes,
Bill