Loudness (ITU BS 1770 / EBU R128) Normalization

[PureChuckles]

Re: Loudness (ITU BS 1770 / EBU R128) Normalization

Perhaps this is designed to accord with the EBU Recommendation

"the Programme Loudness Level shall be normalised to a Target Level of -23.0 LUFS."
https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r128-2014.pdf

Thanks for the quick reply. I believe you might be pointing out a mis-interpretation by the developer(s). Even though EBU states the target is "-23" (LuFS) to make compliant for R128 set standards, from what I can see dBpoweramp is making three errors.

1) It is ignoring any target set by the user and instead uses an embedded/set target for R128 to be the value of "-23".
2) Unfortunately the value of -23 is being used as dB instead of LuFS (ITU BS1770). For my particular content, -23 db ended up being around -34 LuFS.
3) As a result of point 2, the normalization is being treated as a peak value and so only the peaks were reaching -23 (dB). By some this point and point 2 could be the same.

I'll take a stab that "probably" some type of phrasing we are looking for in the options are:

a) Peak to Peak (dB)
b) EBU R128 (-23 LuFs Integrated) ** Which calculates the overall track volume and adjusts to average -23 LuFS
c) EBU R128 (-23 LuFs Adaptive) ** Which calculates the based on the R128 standards deviation within the allotted window and corrects dynamics to level
d) ITU bs 1770 (custom LuFS/LKFS Integrated) ** Similar to B, but allows the user to set a custom loudness level such as -18 LuFS/LKFS
e) ITU bs 1770 (custom LuFS/LKFS Adaptive) ** Similar to C, but allows the user to set a custom loudness level but include
f) ATSC A/85 (-24 LKFS) ** if so desired to include: window, deviation, attack, release. A decent UI reference is that of Adobe Audition.

To be honest, for my greedy needs, "D" is all I need. To normalize (match loudness) of a track without changing dynamics to a custom LuFS level.

Thanks for the helpful comments
-Charles

[PureChuckles]

Re: Loudness (ITU BS 1770 / EBU R128) Normalization

Perhaps this is designed to accord with the EBU Recommendation

"the Programme Loudness Level shall be normalised to a Target Level of -23.0 LUFS."
https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r128-2014.pdf

Thanks for the quick reply. I believe you might be pointing out a mis-interpretation by the developer(s). Even though EBU states the target is "-23" (LuFS) to make compliant for R128 set standards, from what I can see dBpoweramp is making three errors.

1) It is ignoring any target set by the user and instead uses an embedded/set target for R128 to be the value of "-23".
2) Unfortunately the value of -23 is being used as dB instead of LuFS (ITU BS1770). For my particular content, -23 db ended up being around -34 LuFS.
3) As a result of point 2, the normalization is being treated as a peak value and so only the peaks were reaching -23 (dB). By some this point and point 2 could be the same.

I'll take a stab that "probably" some type of phrasing we are looking for in the options are:

a) Peak to Peak (dB)
b) EBU R128 (-23 LuFs Integrated) ** Which calculates the overall track volume and adjusts to average -23 LuFS
c) EBU R128 (-23 LuFs Adaptive) ** Which calculates the based on the R128 standards deviation within the allotted window and corrects dynamics to level
d) ITU bs 1770 (custom LuFS/LKFS Integrated) ** Similar to B, but allows the user to set a custom loudness level such as -18 LuFS/LKFS
e) ITU bs 1770 (custom LuFS/LKFS Adaptive) ** Similar to C, but allows the user to set a custom loudness level but include
f) ATSC A/85 (-24 LKFS) ** if so desired to include: window, deviation, attack, release. A decent UI reference is that of Adobe Audition.

To be honest, for my greedy needs, "D" is all I need. To normalize (match loudness) of a track without changing dynamics to a custom LuFS level.

Thanks for the helpful comments
-Charles

[jfkaess]

Re: Loudness (ITU BS 1770 / EBU R128) Normalization

Instead of having to know (and this is not shown anywhere in the DSP) that the LUFS value for EBU R128 used to be -23 and now has been changed to -18, and having a slider and box which allow you to make changes to the LUFS level without ever actually showing you the level you are setting, Why not have it clearly marked what the LUFS value is in the DSP with a slider which allows you to change the actual LUFS level and showing the LUFS level the DSP is actually configured to? And this should be the same in both the MAC and Windows versions.

[chrisjj]

Re: Loudness (ITU BS 1770 / EBU R128) Normalization

2) The option in the DSP for "Volume Normalize" is stated in dB no matter the type selected. Is this just due to a carry-over in the development? Is it really LuFS

The labelling is confused and confusing. Starting with the legacy title "Volume Normalize", for which dB is correct. But this dialog now handles also Loudness Normalisation, for which the title, slider label and slider units are incorrect. Correct would be "Volume/Loudness Normalization", "Desired loudness" and "LUFS".

Spoon, I suggest when Type is set to one of the two loudness options, the slider label change to "Desired loudness" and the slider units change to "LUFS".

Also I think the Volume options' slider units would be better stated as "dbFS".

And note the extra/missing spaces here: http://i.imgur.com/siWT2LR.png

4) Would it be appropriate to say that "Track Normalization" is analogous to "Integrated"?

More than analogous, I hope! :-) It should be EBU R128 Integrated. https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3341.pdf .

5) ReplayGain (admittedly, of which I'm not very familiar), and EBU R128 both have the same parameters available. So, what differs between the two?

EBU R128 is based on scientific research, and is thought to be more accurate.

[chrisjj]

Re: Loudness (ITU BS 1770 / EBU R128) Normalization

Just a second post. It seems even if I choose EBU R128 Volume Normalization and set the value to -18 dB... it is not normalized to any EBU R128 LuFS scale. It just normalizes to -23 peak dB as far as I can determine. So perhaps there is a bug?

Perhaps this is designed to accord with the EBU Recommendation

"the Programme Loudness Level shall be normalised to a Target Level of -23.0 LUFS."

https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r128-2014.pdf

But regardless, it fails to accord with the dBpa docs:

"EBU R128: ... Internally the audio is calculated to a -23LUFS level, it can be adjusted with the dB scale on the right."

https://www.dbpoweramp.com/help/Codec/DSP/help.htm

though this itself seem contradicted by:

"dBpoweramp DSP Version Changes
Release 12

Volume Normalize EBU-R128 defaults to -18 dB target volume."

https://www.dbpoweramp.com/help/Codec/DSP/version.html

[PureChuckles]

Re: Loudness (ITU BS 1770 / EBU R128) Normalization

Just a second post. It seems even if I choose EBU R128 Volume Normalization and set the value to -18 dB... it is not normalized to any EBU R128 LuFS scale. It just normalizes to -23 peak dB as far as I can determine. So perhaps there is a bug?

Thanks

[PureChuckles]

Just wanted toss this question out there. I've reviewed a little bit of the Normalization options and I'm just a little unclear. For the sake of broadcast and streaming production, what is the best method through the converter to Normalize to a Loudness standard. The terminology is different than what I am accustom to working with. So, allow me to ask a few questions.

1) What is the most effective way to Normalize to a LuFS/LKFS scale? I wish to normalize to custom levels (destructively/permanently). Some at -16 LuFS, some at -18 LuFS, and some at -23 LuFS. Depending on content.
2) The option in the DSP for "Volume Normalize" is stated in dB no matter the type selected. Is this just due to a carry-over in the development? Is it really LuFS
3) The "Adaptive" type of Normalization in the Help section as an adjustment of dynamics, like a limiter/compress may provide. My question here is that, there is a "window length" (time) setting, and a max amplification (analogous to threshold?). But there are no settings for:
* Attack/Look Ahead (how fast it adjusts the audio)
* Release (how fast the adjustment recovers)
* dBTP (TruePeak... the absolute peak limit to avoid encoder gain clip)
So are there any specifications as to what those may be?
4) Would it be appropriate to say that "Track Normalization" is analogous to "Integrated"? And "Adaptive Normalization" is analogous to "Momentary"? (using EBU R128 as a reference).
5) ReplayGain (admittedly, of which I'm not very familiar), and EBU R128 both have the same parameters available. So, what differs between the two?

Thanks for the help,
Charles