Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

[Rudi.H]

When using DSD Effect "HDCD" Music Converter recognises some albums/tracks as HDCD which Microsoft Media Player does not.
From in total about 600 CDs Music Converter sees 14 as HDCD, WMP only sees 11.

So, what software is right?

I checked one of the decoded files only Music Coverter recognised as DSD with a sound editor and there was no change in dynamics beetween undecoded and decoded file, so it seems Music Converter has only increased bit depht (because it is not really a HDCD?).

[Spoon]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

We have never heard of a false positive on HDCD detection previously, for HDCD to be detected a certain byte stream is needed which is repeated, it is very unlikely a real audio track would have this.

[Rudi.H]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

Ok, but this doesn't clarify the problem.

Normally I'm no MS fan, but MS is the owner of HDCD trademark (200 MS bought Pacific Microsonics whoch develope dHDCD) and they shoud have the original code.

Let me give examples.
CD "Knock Out 2000" from Charly Antolini: Music Converter says 8 tracks of 16 are HDCD, WMP says no.
CD "Ladies´Jazz" from Label myjazz: Music Converter says 1 track of 16 is HDCD, WMP says no.
CD "Enrique" from Enrique Iglesias: Music Converter says 11 tracks of 14 are HDCD, WMP says the same.

I know that HDCD is track and not disc independent, but it seems courios to me that 1 or 8 of 16 tracks on a CD should be HDCD.
Additionally there is the fact that I checked such files and there was no increase in dynamics (the intention of HDCD) after applying DSP effect "HDCD".

Please can you check if Media Converter does the right thing. The differences mentioned above must have a reason.

[schmidj]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

Be aware that some recording engineers use the HDCD encoder/analog to digital converter because they like the "sound" of it. It is considered a high quality converter. Some engineers may have used it on particular recordings even though there was nothing, or just analog noise, below 16 bits to encode. Given that it is not unusual for tracks to be recorded by different studios and different engineers before being compiled into an album these days, I wouldn't be surprised to find some tracks. but not all, on a CD to have been encoded with HDCD. I don't know but it is possible that WMP only reports an album as HDCD if all the tracks are HDCD?

[esskay]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

We have never heard of a false positive on HDCD detection previously, for HDCD to be detected a certain byte stream is needed which is repeated, it is very unlikely a real audio track would have this.

I've had a similar problem ripping certain discs. For disc 1 of Sony's "Emanuel Ax Plays Haydn," some tracks are detected as HDCD, while others for the same composition are not. That seems unlikely to be real.

- SK

[Rudi.H]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

Be aware that some recording engineers use the HDCD encoder/analog to digital converter because they like the "sound" of it. It is considered a high quality converter. Some engineers may have used it on particular recordings even though there was nothing, or just analog noise, below 16 bits to encode. Given that it is not unusual for tracks to be recorded by different studios and different engineers before being compiled into an album these days, I wouldn't be surprised to find some tracks. but not all, on a CD to have been encoded with HDCD.

OK, thanks for this information. This explains why decoded tracks don't have increased dynamics, but not the difference between Music Converter and WMP

I don't know but it is possible that WMP only reports an album as HDCD if all the tracks are HDCD?

This was my first thought too, but I found one album with not all tracks HDCD, and Music Converter and WMP both say HDCD for the same tracks.
So this cannot be the reason for the discrepancy between Music Converter and WMP.

[esskay]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

If there is an HDCD false positive, what would be the effect on sound quality?

SK

[Rudi.H]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

If there is an HDCD false positive, what would be the effect on sound quality?

SK

I've checked a few tracks with possiibly HDCD false positive and and the effect on sound quality seems to be None.

But, there are following side effects on false HDCD decoded tracks:
- Decrease of track volume
- Unnecessary increase in bit depht (and file size)
- The question: Is there sure no effect on sound quality for all imaginable false positive detections

So, I'd prefer correct working of HDCD detection.

[Porcus]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

There are HDCDs which use no HDCD features. They just have the code that says "I am a HDCD, and I use the following features:"
[and then none].

If unencoded HDCD is passed to a HDCD-aware DAC, then those fake HDCD will not see any processing. It is possible that WMP just does it right, but chooses not to tell you about those.
There are some applications around which can detect the features used. One is my mediaplayer of choice, foobar2000, with the foo_hdcd plugin. Also IIRC dBpoweramp's hdcd module could do so, if you call it from the command line (cumbersome, requires wav files ...)


My point of view (for the long version, search this forum): if you rip to lossless, do not convert HDCDs. It is irreversible, and HDCD is flagged in-signal, meaning that it can be detected from the audio if lossless. And converted later.

[Rudi.H]

Re: Music Converter recognises CDs as HDCD which WMP does not. What is right?

Thanks for the foobar hint. I've installed (with hdcd plugin) and checked some Albums.
I found there are three kinds of HDCD albums:

1. "True" HDCD
- WMP, foobar and MC says: "HDCD"
- foobar says: HDCD features used (eg. Peak extension)
- my conclusion: it makes sense to HDCD decode
- my wish: These tracks shall be decoded

2. "Untrue" HDCD
- WMP, foobar and MC says: "HDCD"
- foobar says: no HDCD features used
- my conclusion: it makes no sense to HDCD decode (no better sound, but larger files)
- my wish: this tracks shall not be decoded, but if so, it is not a huge problem

3. false detected (?) HDCD
- WMP and foobar says: "No HDCD"
- MC says "HDCD"
- my conclusion: track is not HDCD, it seems like a false detection
- my wish: no decoding for these tracks (I don't know what happens if decoded nevertheless. what does the decoder in such a case?)


So, is there a bug in MC's HDCD detection?
How to guarantee not to decode false detected HDCDs?

At the moment I see only one workflow for me:
1. Rip without HDCD decoding
2. Run MC with DSP effect HDCD
3. In foobar check the source files of all files changed to 24 bit, if they are really HDCD.
4. Do a second run with MC only for the files positiv verified in step 3.
This is not a practicable way (because time cunsuming step 3).