Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

[Oortone]

New to dBpoweramp on Mac, still evaluating it but it seems promising.

As far as I can see the Replay Gain option in "DSP Effects / Actions" will write Replay Gain metadata to a file according to it's percieved loudness.
However what I don't understand is if it's possible to do this without decoding/encoding the file. If I just need to write this parameter it's destructive to reencode the file if it is to be kept in the same audio format. That is when using lossy formats as mp3.

Also, what's the purpose of Replay Gain (apply)?

Or even better: Are the DSP options documented anywhere? I couldn't find it.

[mville]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

New to dBpoweramp on Mac, still evaluating it but it seems promising.

As far as I can see the Replay Gain option in "DSP Effects / Actions" will write Replay Gain metadata to a file according to it's percieved loudness.
However what I don't understand is if it's possible to do this without decoding/encoding the file. If I just need to write this parameter it's destructive to reencode the file if it is to be kept in the same audio format. That is when using lossy formats as mp3.

Also, what's the purpose of Replay Gain (apply)?

Or even better: Are the DSP options documented anywhere? I couldn't find it.

ReplayGain questions are asked all of the time, so a search on these forums should provide the answers to these questions.

[garym]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

I'm not sure I follow your questions. RG simply adds tags used by many players to modify volume on the fly. This does NOT modify file audio. RG (apply) modifies the audio using the RG parameters. The latter is often used for lossy copies to be played in players that don't support RG tags.

[Oortone]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

I'm not sure I follow your questions. RG simply adds tags used by many players to modify volume on the fly. This does NOT modify file audio. RG (apply) modifies the audio using the RG parameters. The latter is often used for lossy copies to be played in players that don't support RG tags.

But there's no option in "Converting to" that's called "keep original format" or "Do not convert".
It's only a list of various formats.
To me it seems it's going to convert, since it says "Converting to".
How can I feel confident I get all the parameters right so that it's not converted?

ReplayGain questions are asked all of the time, so a search on these forums should provide the answers to these questions.

You obviously didn't read my questions only the headline.
Better not to write an answer in that case.

[garym]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

But there's no option in "Converting to" that's called "keep original format" or "Do not convert".
It's only a list of various formats.
To me it seems it's going to convert, since it says "Converting to".
How can I feel confident I get all the parameters right so that it's not converted?




You obviously didn't read my questions only the headline.
Better not to write an answer in that case.

If you "convert to" RG DSP, it just adds RG tags. It's not modifying anything else. I agree that the use of the term "convert to" is a bit misleading when using some DSPs. What are you actually trying to do? We need more specifics.

edit. Have you installed the replaygain DSP? I can't recall what is installed automatically vs the DSPs that have to be separately installed from codec central.

[Spoon]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

Visit:

https://www.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central-utility.htm

and install the Replay Gain utility codec, then convert the files to this utility codec and it simply calculates rg and tags the files.

[mville]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

You obviously didn't read my questions only the headline.
Better not to write an answer in that case.

Please do not tell me what I did or did not do, I was just trying to help you to help yourself.

FYI, I have just searched the forums as advised and guess what, the answers are there.

[Oortone]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

Visit:

https://www.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central-utility.htm

and install the Replay Gain utility codec, then convert the files to this utility codec and it simply calculates rg and tags the files.

I don't get it.
I installed dBpoweramp (Mac) and it already calculates Replay Gain as far as I can tell. The option is there in "DSP" and I tried on some mp3 and flac files and it seems to work.
Why do I need to install an additional "codec"?

Maybe the Mac version is different in this way? The link you provide only has Windows compatible "codecs".

If you "convert to" RG DSP, it just adds RG tags. It's not modifying anything else. I agree that the use of the term "convert to" is a bit misleading when using some DSPs. What are you actually trying to do? We need more specifics.

Actually that does not seem to be correct. If I use only the Replay Gain plugin but set the encoder to anything different than the source format I will get a file encoded in the new format. I checked. Even with just a slight alteration on MP3 files this results in decoding/encoding which is destructive. Of course, using the exact same format as the source could bypass the reencoding but since it takes exactly the same time and there's no other indication it is bypassing the reencoding I have a hard time believing it actually does this.

What I'm trying to do is finding a way to only write the replay gain information in the files without altering the audio stream.

Please do not tell me what I did or did not do, I was just trying to help you to help yourself.

FYI, I have just searched the forums as advised and guess what, the answers are there.

I have no idea why you would waste your time doing that instead of helping out.
But I see this in some forums from time to time. People who spend a tremendous amount of time telling people to "search the forum" or "why don't you google it" e.t.c.

So if you can point me to the discussion where these questions above are answered please do, otherwise, well, what's the point?

[Spoon]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

This codec is Windows only, it enables the addition of Replaygain tags without reencoding the file.

[Oortone]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

This codec is Windows only, it enables the addition of Replaygain tags without reencoding the file.

OK, this is still a bit confusing.
I've now learned that there is a "codec" for the Windows version that will not re-encode the audio in the file. Although the codec you pointed to is Windows only I do have the exact same option already installed in the Mac version. At least it has the same name.

Does that mean I should assume the Mac version always re-encodes the audio of the file regarldess of settings and file formats? That there's no way to use "utility codecs" undestructively on lossy formats?


Regarding the other two questions:
- I'm still curious if there's some more in depth documentaion on DSP effects somwhere.
- "Replay Gain (apply)" seems to cause a lot of confusion here since there's the almost similar "Volume Normalize". No need to go further in to that but for future versions it could be a good idea to include "Replay Gain (apply)" as one of the normalizing methods of "Volume Normalize", that would definitely make it less confusing. It definitely is a volume normalizing method.

[garym]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

OK, this is still a bit confusing.
I've now learned that there is a "codec" for the Windows version that will not re-encode the audio in the file. Although the codec you pointed to is Windows only I do have the exact same option already installed in the Mac version. At least it has the same name.

Does that mean I should assume the Mac version always re-encodes the audio of the file regarldess of settings and file formats? That there's no way to use "utility codecs" undestructively on lossy formats?

I don't have Mac so not sure about it. But from what Spoon says, the Mac version does not have the RG utility codec. Make sure you're not confusing having the RG DSP (that can be added to the converter/ripper options) with the RG utility codec. These are two different things.

p.s. there are other programs that can add RG tags to already created files, including lossy files. I often use foobar2000 to do this. It is a windows program, but I think people run it on a Mac with wine or something similar. I suspect there are Mac OS programs that can also add RG only (no re-encoding). I recall a program called XLD that might be useful.

[mville]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

OK, this is still a bit confusing.
I've now learned that there is a "codec" for the Windows version that will not re-encode the audio in the file. Although the codec you pointed to is Windows only I do have the exact same option already installed in the Mac version. At least it has the same name.

ReplayGain is non-destructive and just writes replaygain tags to the audio file. These tags are used by media players/servers, on playback, that support replaygain.

ReplayGain (Apply) is destructive and changes the digital audio volume level in the audio file, mainly used if your media player/server does not support replaygain on playback.

There is a ReplayGain DSP and a ReplayGain (Apply) DSP in dBpoweramp Music Converter for Windows and Mac, that can only be used in either CDRipper when ripping CDs or dBpoweramp Music Coverter >> Converting To, when converting (encoding/re-encoding) file formats.

There is also the ReplayGain Utility Codec available as a download for dBpoweramp Music Converter for Windows only, which looks exactly the same as the ReplayGain DSP, but does not encode/re-encode the audio.

Does that mean I should assume the Mac version always re-encodes the audio of the file regarldess of settings and file formats? That there's no way to use "utility codecs" undestructively on lossy formats?

Yes.

I'm still curious if there's some more in depth documentaion on DSP effects somewhere.

In dBpoweramp Music Converter for Windows, each DSP I use has a help icon, which when selected, opens the DSP help documentation from here (for dBpoweramp Music Converter 64-bit install):
C:\Program Files\dBpoweramp\Help\Codec\DSP\help.htm

"Replay Gain (apply)" seems to cause a lot of confusion here since there's the almost similar "Volume Normalize". No need to go further in to that but for future versions it could be a good idea to include "Replay Gain (apply)" as one of the normalizing methods of "Volume Normalize", that would definitely make it less confusing. It definitely is a volume normalizing method.

Yes, they are similar and should only be used if absolutely necessary.

[mville]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

I have no idea why you would waste your time doing that instead of helping out.
But I see this in some forums from time to time. People who spend a tremendous amount of time telling people to "search the forum" or "why don't you google it" e.t.c.

These forums are a great resource for end users. It is also widely accepted that users search the forums first, instead of repeating the same old questions, that is all.

I don't see people on these forums spending a tremendous amount of time telling users to search or google. On the odd occasion when this does happen, I can assure you it is ONLY to help and advise.

[Oortone]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

These forums are a great resource for end users. It is also widely accepted that users search the forums first, instead of repeating the same old questions, that is all.

I don't see people on these forums spending a tremendous amount of time telling users to search or google. On the odd occasion when this does happen, I can assure you it is ONLY to help and advise.

What made you think I didn't search the forum prior to registering and posting?

The central question in my first post was not covered in previous posts as far as my search results implied.
If you can prove me wrong please be welcome to share the search resluts you talked about earlier. The more I can read about this issue of Replay Gain in Mac version of dBPoweramp the better!

[Oortone]

Re: Replay Gain nondestructive and Replay Gain (apply)

Thank you all for the answers.

As far as I can tell the Mac version looks identical when it comes to the so called "DSP" options in Batch, Convert and Rip mode. The Replay Gain is there but if I've now understood this correctly it's not intended for the purpose of tagging only. It's intended as an auxiliary task as part of a file reencoding process. I guess that's true for the ID-tag processing also then? I must be honest and say, that's a very strange implementation. Mixing DSP and tagprocessing like that and having mandatory reencoding on top of it all. Wouldn't it be nice to have the option to chose "bypass" (or "do not convert") as an option in the encoder stage for all puropses when you don't want to process (decode/reencode) the actual audio?

Just out of curiosity, how is the Utility: Replay Gain inserted in the process in the Windows version? It would be interesting to see a screen shot of what it looks like. I just assumed the Windows version was like the Mac version, just a bit older so that the Replay Gain was not part of the DSP menu prior to insalling it. But from what I've learned now it's probably something completely different. So it does the same thing as Replay Gain DSP but bypasses the encoding stage prior to the DSP stage? Peculiar indeed.

@garym Yes, XLD is a great ripper for Mac. I'm just in the process of ripping my CD-collection using it. However it only has the Replay Gain option when ripping, not for post ripping file processing. I need that to.

@mville I wonder if these help files go more in depth than the ones I can reach from the Mac version. Chosing help from the help menu on Mac brings me to the online help (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmchelposx/index.html) which has very little (none?) info on the various choices of the DSP/Action-plugins.