The best format

[Flrun]

Re: The best format

Garym - Crap your right. Then which one do I use? The only other option for m4a is m4a Nero but it is not high lighted. ( Installed )
Yea I am definitely ripping everything to FLAC and leaving it like that except what I need for portable players.

[garym]

Re: The best format

A couple of questions that have popped up as I have started ripping with dB.
Do you recommend lowering the burn speed when you rip? I have always lowered the burn speed when burning data or music to cd to 4 or 8x to reduce the chance of errors. It takes longer but I am not in a hurry.

And when you convert to MP3 ( lame ) on the Encoding you have the option of Normal or Slow ( High quality )
Would Slow make a difference?

no, i wouldn't lower the ripping speed. This has been shown to actually cause problems. Just leave it at default. And keep in mind that you're not BURNING a CD, you're ripping a CD. I use Slow (high quality) but I recall reading that that option may not even matter any more with latest versions of LAME encoder.

[Flrun]

Re: The best format

A couple of questions that have popped up as I have started ripping with dB.
Do you recommend lowering the burn speed when you rip? I have always lowered the burn speed when burning data or music to cd to 4 or 8x to reduce the chance of errors. It takes longer but I am not in a hurry.

And when you convert to MP3 ( lame ) on the Encoding you have the option of Normal or Slow ( High quality )
Would Slow make a difference?

[garym]

Re: The best format

So here is what I did. Converted from FLAC a MP3 and m4a.
The MP3 I set to -V0 ( 240kbps ) Thought it would be larger only a little over 6Mb. m4a on the other hand is 18.5Mb

I then put the FLAC, MP3, and m4a into Foobar and started comparing them all at the same volume.
I really can't tell a difference between all three. Maybe the FLAC is a little better but it is hard to tell. Didn't think the m4a bitrate was that high:
FLAC 807 kbps
m4a 818 kbps
mp3 265 kbps

Even with mp3 being that much lower I can't tell the difference between the other two.

You must have accidentally created an apple lossless file in the m4a container. an m4a lossy file would be about the size of the mp3. With most normal music, most people (and this is well tested) can not distinguish between a lossless version (FLAC or Apple lossless) and a high bitrate lossy file (for sure the mp3 at V0 should be transparent...i.e., sound as good as a lossless file). But it is still a good idea to rip initially to a lossless (FLAC) archive.

[Flrun]

Re: The best format

No ReplayGain tags are not needed at all. No harm not to include them. If you want your mp3 files to be very best quality, I'd make them -V0 in the slider settings. Leave everything else as default. This should produce mp3 files that are virtually impossible to distinguish from the lossless FLAC files.

So here is what I did. Converted from FLAC a MP3 and m4a.
The MP3 I set to -V0 ( 240kbps ) Thought it would be larger only a little over 6Mb. m4a on the other hand is 18.5Mb

I then put the FLAC, MP3, and m4a into Foobar and started comparing them all at the same volume.
I really can't tell a difference between all three. Maybe the FLAC is a little better but it is hard to tell. Didn't think the m4a bitrate was that high:
FLAC 807 kbps
m4a 818 kbps
mp3 265 kbps

Even with mp3 being that much lower I can't tell the difference between the other two.

[garym]

Re: The best format

I read that link, basically it levels the volume across a collection of songs.
So do I really need it? Personal if the volume varies it doesn't bother me. It is not going to hurt anything to just not use it right?
I made sure my volume was the same when I was doing my comparison. I don't believe that is a issue anymore since it all sounds the way it is supposed to now that I removed the replaygain, I am happy with it now. The FLAC sounds the way it is supposed to.

I will have to check the bitrate on the m4a I created, it is whatever default is I didn't change it.
I will have to try MP3 lame on V2 and see how that sounds. What would the next higher quality one be? I am not really concerned about my MP3s taking up a little bit more room I would rather have the higher quality sound.
Are there any other settings in MP3 to change besides the bitrate?

I don't want to use different types of lossy, I was concerned if m4a would sound better than MP3 or vise versa. If it doesn't matter I will just make them all MP3.
That is exactly what I am going to do, rip all my CDs to computer using FLAC and leave them like that and then convert what I need to MP3 for portable use.

Thanks.

No ReplayGain tags are not needed at all. No harm not to include them. If you want your mp3 files to be very best quality, I'd make them -V0 in the slider settings. Leave everything else as default. This should produce mp3 files that are virtually impossible to distinguish from the lossless FLAC files.

[Flrun]

Re: The best format

I read that link, basically it levels the volume across a collection of songs.
So do I really need it? Personal if the volume varies it doesn't bother me. It is not going to hurt anything to just not use it right?
I made sure my volume was the same when I was doing my comparison. I don't believe that is a issue anymore since it all sounds the way it is supposed to now that I removed the replaygain, I am happy with it now. The FLAC sounds the way it is supposed to.

I will have to check the bitrate on the m4a I created, it is whatever default is I didn't change it.
I will have to try MP3 lame on V2 and see how that sounds. What would the next higher quality one be? I am not really concerned about my MP3s taking up a little bit more room I would rather have the higher quality sound.
Are there any other settings in MP3 to change besides the bitrate?

I don't want to use different types of lossy, I was concerned if m4a would sound better than MP3 or vise versa. If it doesn't matter I will just make them all MP3.
That is exactly what I am going to do, rip all my CDs to computer using FLAC and leave them like that and then convert what I need to MP3 for portable use.

Thanks.

[garym]

Re: The best format

Garym -
I just removed the replaygain and ripped it again and it came out perfect. I made sure I did not select the (apply) one the first time.
I converted one to Apple .m4a now it is the other way around. I played the FLAC in Foobar and the m4a in iTunes and switched back and forth, the FLAC sounds amazing and the .m4a lower quality. Although it does sound better than when I had replaygain on.

So I don't get it, if there is nothing wrong with using replaygain and dbpoweramp's instructions tell you too but it makes it sounds like crap then what should you do?

See TedSmith's answer on RG. Nothing wrong with it, but you should probably avoid until you figure out what you're doing. Itunes doesn't even use RG values. (it has its own version called "SoundCheck" values and even this you can turn on/off in itunes (i.e., don't use SoundCheck). However, there is now an option in the RG DSP to create the iTunNorm value for itunes (this is the tag for SOUNDCHECK). What is the bitrate of the m4a file you've created? If it is too low, then it is likely that this lossy files will sound worse of course. That's the nature of lossy codecs. But at a high enough bit rate they should be transparent (most of the time) compared back to the lossless version (FLAC).

Bottom line is that playing a FLAC file should sound identical to playing the CD itself. That's why it is a LOSSLESS format. It is bit identical to the CD. So if it doesn't sound "as good" then something in your playback chain is not good or you are not comparing apples to apples. This is likely all driven by your VOLUME. A tiny volume difference can make something sound worse when doing comparisons (although this doesn't typically lead to sounding like "crap" but that has different meanings to different people I suppose). Foobar2000 is a good player and should play FLACS (or mp3 or m4a) with no problem. Check that you haven't turned on any DSPs in the foobar settings (preferences > playback). And take a FLAC file and convert it to m4a and mp3 and then play all 3 in Foobar2000 to see how they sound to you. In fact, you can install the ABX Comparison component in foobar, then load up the FLAC and mp3 in your playlist, highlight both, right click, choose Utilities, and choose ABX. This will allow you do perform a double blind test on whether you can tell the difference between the mp3 and FLAC file.

My next question is...
I went to convert a FLAC to MP3 (Lame) using dbpoweramp music converter and it gives you all the options.
Target
Variable bit rate quality
Encoding
And Advanced options
Do you guys leave them on default or change them?

The same thing if you choose Windows Media Audio 10
Codec - 9.2? 10? 10 Professional?
Target
Settings

I use LAME mp3 as the codec for lossy. I personally use -V2 which produces an average bitrate of about 192kbps. If you are paranoid you might use -V0. You can use the ABX function in foobar to test for yourself where lossy files are no longer transparent. Many widespread tests indicate that anything above about 160kbs is probably transparent on most music. But you can decide for yourself or simply use -V0. You have the FLAC files, so for home use you have lossless anyhow. Lossy for me is just for portable use. And the beauty of having the FLAC files is that if you decide later on you wish you had -V0 rather than -V2, a few mouse clicks and you can recreate your entire lossy music files. (Or more likely, you'll decide to go from -V2 to something like -V4, to get a lot more files on your portables while retaining reasonably good quality.)

I don't use m4a or WMA. In fact, I'm curious as to why you want all these different types of lossy files. Seems like you should (1) rip to lossless (I recommend FLAC for this), then choose a single lossy format that works for you. This should likely be mp3 or m4a. Virtually no one that is serious about their digital music uses WMA format for lossy files. Windows Media can play mp3 or m4a so why bother with WMA. And be careful if you open you files in WMP, as if the settings aren't right, WMA will change your tags, change your artwork. Bottom line, I don't let WMP anywhere near my audio files. Foobar2000 does everything WMP does and more. And for video, I use VLC media player. I do use itunes to load up all the mp3 files on my ipods, iphones, and ipads.

[TedSmith]

Re: The best format

Garym -
I just removed the replaygain and ripped it again and it came out perfect. I made sure I did not select the (apply) one the first time.
I converted one to Apple .m4a now it is the other way around. I played the FLAC in Foobar and the m4a in iTunes and switched back and forth, the FLAC sounds amazing and the .m4a lower quality. Although it does sound better than when I had replaygain on.

So I don't get it, if there is nothing wrong with using replaygain and dbpoweramp's instructions tell you too but it makes it sounds like crap then what should you do?

The point we were trying to make is that replay gain tags MAY change the volume depending on the player's capabilities. Right now you can avoid using it. When you are ready you can read up on it: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....tle=Replaygain (You can always add replay gain in batch with dBpoweramp, foobar2000, etc. later.)

The differences you are hearing are simply how loud you are playing things: i.e. your volume control. It has nothing to do with the player, the ripping software or conversions except you may be confusing yourself with different replay gain tags and/or different replay gain settings (and perhaps DSP settings) in the various players you are using. Till you are comfortable don't use any DSP or replay gain.

[Flrun]

Re: The best format

My next question is...
I went to convert a FLAC to MP3 (Lame) using dbpoweramp music converter and it gives you all the options.
Target
Variable bit rate quality
Encoding
And Advanced options
Do you guys leave them on default or change them?

The same thing if you choose Windows Media Audio 10
Codec - 9.2? 10? 10 Professional?
Target
Settings

[Flrun]

Re: The best format

Garym -
I just removed the replaygain and ripped it again and it came out perfect. I made sure I did not select the (apply) one the first time.
I converted one to Apple .m4a now it is the other way around. I played the FLAC in Foobar and the m4a in iTunes and switched back and forth, the FLAC sounds amazing and the .m4a lower quality. Although it does sound better than when I had replaygain on.

So I don't get it, if there is nothing wrong with using replaygain and dbpoweramp's instructions tell you too but it makes it sounds like crap then what should you do?

[garym]

Re: The best format

TedSmith - Ok I will probably give Foobar a try. Does it also support DLNA?

You guys are right I have the replaygain added but dbpoweramps instruction page says to turn that on. I will have to rip the CD again without it.
So you do not need it?

The Foobar version on there is a old one, I need to download the latest and I will look at those settings.

Be a bit careful here. Nothing at all wrong with ReplayGain tags. In fact, having these tags is part of my preference (the only DSP I add in ripping FLAC files is RG, both track and album values). But this is just tag info (no different than the Album name or Artist name). Various players can use these tags to automatically adjust volume based on these tags. But simply adding these tags does NOT change the audio (still bit perfect).

But there is a different DSP called Replay Gain (Apply). This DSP *does* modify the volume (and typically it would be *lowering* the volume, which would make it sound worse). You would NOT want to use this DSP.

Bottom line, nothing at all wrong with adding the regular ReplayGain tag.

[Flrun]

Re: The best format

TedSmith - Ok I will probably give Foobar a try. Does it also support DLNA?

You guys are right I have the replaygain added but dbpoweramps instruction page says to turn that on. I will have to rip the CD again without it.
So you do not need it?

The Foobar version on there is a old one, I need to download the latest and I will look at those settings.

[garym]

Re: The best format

I use foobar2000 for computer playback of all sorts of files. Odd issue with the "flat sounding" FLAC files. All I can think of is that you added the ReplayGain tags and/or RG (volume normalize), and because the volume is lower, the file doesn't sound as good. I assume your foobar2000 was a default install. in fb2000, check FILE > PREFERENCES > PLAYBACK. I assume the preamp sliders are set to 0db (in the middle). This is where they should be. Also, turn the volume on your computer to 100% and then control the volume of the playback with the volume control in fb2000. And when comparing the sound of two files, do make sure that the volume is the same. Higher volume files are always considered to sound "better" independent of type of file.

Bottom line, something is not right with something in your step. A FLAC or Apple Lossless file should NOT sound worse. (Do keep in mind that a high bitrate lossy file may sound AS GOOD as the FLAC (lossless) file. But it is still a good idea to rip to lossless as discussed earlier.

[dbfan]

Re: The best format

It is possible you have replaygain tags, it volume normalise. Either of these alter the volume.