m4a or Lame MP3?

[lewislink]

Hello to all, I am a very happy registered user of dBpoweramp and have a question. What is the general opinion about which format produces better sound, m4a or Lame MP3 at their highest VBR setting in dBpoweramp?

[Spoon]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

At the highest settings there will be no difference between the two (IMHO)

[lewislink]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

So a Lame MP3 VBR@240 file will sound better than an m4a VBR@250 file?

The reason I ask is because I am wondering if I should use AAC files on my Zune; if AAC files would produce a better sound.

[xoas]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

With any lossy format (including mp3 and m4a) the issue of sound quality is relegated to the notion of transparency. Transparency is the stage (bitrate) where you cannot detect the difference between the original source track and a copy of the same track recorded in a lossy format.

I believe that Spoon's comment was to the effect that you are unlikely to detect a difference between the highest VBR settings of the 2 formats in question. While I agree with this, I would point out that you could do your own test to determine whether you do detect a difference in sound quality between these 2 formats at the settings in question.

The other issue that would have some bearing on this question has to do with whether you already have these tracks in one or the other of these lossy formats. In that case, you would run a small risk of introducing a loss of audio quality by converting from one of these formats to the other (and you could also test to see if this would introduce detectable differences or not if this is your situation). But if you are converting from lossless copies or are burning directly from CD, then this would not be an issue.

Best wishes,
Bill

[lewislink]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

Thanks for the reply. As for testing them myself, I have done that. But I'm not sure if I'm hearing a difference or if I only believe I'm hearing a difference. As it stands, I *think* m4a sounds better. But whether or not it sounds better because I want it to (the placebo effect) or simply because it is better, I have no clue. My hearing, I believe, isn't as keen as an audio aficionado's.

At one time, in the past, I felt AAC was suppose to be better than MP3 because Apple chose to use it and because people were saying it's the next step in audio compression (MPEG 1/2/2.5 Layer 3 versus MPEG-4). Also, because of a negative experience with lower bitrate MP3 files, I shy'd away from the format. I was disturbed at the sound quality of 64 bit MP3 files versus 64 bit WMA files. I could clearly hear troubling distortion and because of this I felt MP3 wasn't as good as the other formats....WMA, AAC, OGG/Vorbis, etc. I figured if MP3 doesn't sound good at the lower bitrate extremes, it surely wouldn't be better than those other formats that did sound good at the same lower bitrates, even at higher bitrates. This experience caused me to believe MP3 was a low quality format and the use of AAC, WMA and others was an upgrade to MP3.

Now, however, I am uncertain. Unfortunately, the MP3 format is the widest used format around and I prefer to maintain a consistent library of music rather than deal with a whole host of different formats. It also saves HHD space when you use just one or, at the most, two formats. I would like to use just one format, but want it to be the best. I have given up on OGG/Vorbis and WMA, as well as APE, MPC, FLAC, because I just don't want to deal with the conversion process of converting my newly acquired CDs to so many different formats. I am at the point of deciding between AAC and MP3. Since, however, AAC isn't as widely used as MP3, if AAC is worth using, I may keep both MP3 and AAC and use AAC on the DAPs that support it.

[jfkaess]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

I wrestled with the same issues and have tried APE, AAC, WMA and MP3 and settled on MP3. I have over 9000 tracks ripped from about 500 CD's and a few hundred vinyl albums from my personal library all using -V 0 (formerly preset extreme) done with Lame 3.97.x and 3.98.x

I made the decision to go with MP3 for the following reasons, which admittedly are personal, and others may make an equally valid but different choice:

1. MP3's ripped via Lame with the -v 0 setting are, as far as I am concerned, archival quality. Others may quibble that archival must be lossless, but I honestly am very comfortable with -v 0. The disk space saved on my iPod is very significant compared to any lossless option, basically allowing about twice as much music. Computer hard drive space is irrelevant given the cheap prices and amount of space available, but space on the iPod is more precious. I have a 60 gig classic and will be getting the newer 120 gig classic soon because I am running out of room.

2. The MP3 format is ubiquitous. I can use it on ANY MP3 player, iPod, Zune, Creative, Sandisk, etc. In addition, I can burn tracks to CD for car trips or other needs. Most newer CD players can play MP3's on CD. In other words, MP3 is hardware independent. It will work on virtually any device, so I won't need to convert to another format any time in the forseeable future.

Those 2 reasons are the bottom line for me. Use of any other format restricts my ability to use any hardware platform and, in my opinion, gains me nothing as far as sound quality is concnerned. Others will disagree. I have been an audiophile for many years and have a pretty good (by audiophile standards) sound system, and very rarely listen to CD's any more, choosing instead to plug up my iPod, choose a playlist set to shuffle, and enjoy my music library without ever having to listen to a track that I don't like (because I do not put those tracks on my iPod).

[crutches888]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

hello new here. i just DL'd the dbpoweramp program. the reason is i'm trying to covert some .m4a files to mp3 or from .aac to mp3.
the reason is cause those files don't show up in my windows media player list/library, if i right click them there is only an option to open them in other players i have instaleed, yet i have windows as my default, even if i choose other prgrams and select to open the files with windows media player the files will play but still won't add to the library.
I like the ease of using windows since i have for years(just used to it), for burning copies of cd's, and since those file types won't add to the library for some reason so i can just drag over to the burn section and easily copy, i don't know what to do except for to convert them.

now the dbpoweramp says i need a codec to convert .m4a to mp3. where do i find that?

if anyone has suggestions for how i can play and add .aac and .m4a files to my windows media player without having to convert my files i'm open for suggestions.

thanks

[xoas]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

You will find the codecs needed for reading converting .m4a and/or .aac files by going to the Codec Central part of the forum. You access this by clicking on the Codec Central tab at the top of this page.

Best wishes,
Bill

[crutches888]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

i'm not to puter savvy , took me a minute to figure out the codec thing, but thanks alot xoas, damn this program is nice, i'm sure i'll figure some other nice features out after toying around.

[Christian_S]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

I figured if MP3 doesn't sound good at the lower bitrate extremes, it surely wouldn't be better than those other formats that did sound good at the same lower bitrates, even at higher bitrates. This experience caused me to believe MP3 was a low quality format and the use of AAC, WMA and others was an upgrade to MP3.

As has been said before, at high bit rates you will most likely not hear a difference. So that should not be a criterion for choosing the format.

I would like to use just one format, but want it to be the best. I have given up on OGG/Vorbis and WMA, as well as APE, MPC, FLAC, because I just don't want to deal with the conversion process of converting my newly acquired CDs to so many different formats.

dBpoweramp is actually very good at converting large amounts of tracks between formats.

My brief recommendation is to rip -- once -- to a lossless format and to then convert/transcode to the lossy format of your choice.

That way you don't have to rip multiple times to multiple formats but you keep a lossless, exact archive of your CDs. From that you can easily convert to a lossy format for your DAP now and a different format in the future should your preference change. Transcoding from a lossy to another lossy format in contrast is not recommended, e.g. from MP3 to AAC or the other way round.

Choosing this approach will also allow you to significantly save space on your iPod or whatever DAP you choose. In most cases the maximum bitrate is overkill, even if you use high-end earphones on your DAP. Many people actually go for much lower bit rates, such as -V 3, and don't hear a difference to the lossless original. There is a good guide available at http://gerwen.webs.com/encoding_guide.pdf which explains how to get around the placebo effect (ABX tests) and choosing a bitrate that is actually suited best to your needs without fooling yourself. If you only had a lossless format as an archive, you would probably go for a higher bitrate just for safety's sake.

You can find out more about this guide on http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=70110. The author has chosen FLAC+MP3 for a variety of reasons, my choice is FLAC+AAC.

Hope this adds a bit of clarity.

[adaywayne]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

At the highest settings there will be no difference between the two (IMHO)

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spoon, I'm always surprised that, when posters ask this sort of question, the issue of their listening device is never mentioned. The relative sound quality of various audio formats at various bitrates may be irrelevant when listening to portable devices rather than good-quality home stereo equipment.
Arnie

[Spoon]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

When generalizing we talk about the average system (which probably is not that great). The other end of the scale are people who believe that WAV and FLAC can have audible differences...

[naveensingh]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

Ok everybody! here goes the explaination.

1. M4A has better spectral bandwidth then MP3 hence comes better at Low bit rates. If you are planing to have bit rate of 128 to 160 kbps, use M4A of iTunes 7.4 or 7.5 which is known to have best encoding engine of this format. The resultaint files will generally sound better then 192 Kbps LAME.

2. If you are planning to use higher bitrates, then the story is different. For bit rates of 192 to 320 Kbps, the differance between LAME MP3 and iTunes M4A is heardly noticable. Kindly note that iTunes M4A encoded at 256 Kbps CBR sounds same as LAME MP3 encoded at 256 Kbps ABR (Avarage Bit Rate) with Minimum bit rate chosen at 224 Kbps and Maximum bitrate chosen at 320 Kbps in ABR settings.

3. Though there is no quality differance with above setting and the file size of two files comes same too,there is a small technical differance. The Band pass filter of two formats are having little differance due to which MP3 files sounds slightly boost in high frequencies espically above 14 KHz and slightly attenuated in low frequencies espically below 30 Hz whereas vice-versa for M4A. However this is heardly noticiable and irrelevent too when the quality is same.

4. Finally here is a tip. Use iTunes 7.4 or 7.5 if encoding M4A and WinAMP 5.5 or later if Encoding MP3 ABR as it may provide more flexiblity then dBPower AMP generally.

Naveen

[jfkaess]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

You neglect one important difference. MP3's are virtually universal and can be played on any device and any software. The same can not be said about M4A. That is the deciding factor for me.

And I have found dbpoweramp reference 13.3 more powerful and flexible for ripping and converting audio files, and especially for getting accurate download information for tracks and finding album art than any other software.

[naveensingh]

Re: m4a or Lame MP3?

You neglect one important difference. MP3's are virtually universal and can be played on any device and any software. The same can not be said about M4A. That is the deciding factor for me.

And I have found dbpoweramp reference 13.3 more powerful and flexible for ripping and converting audio files, and especially for getting accurate download information for tracks and finding album art than any other software.

hello new here. i just DL'd the dbpoweramp program. the reason is i'm trying to covert some .m4a files to mp3 or from .aac to mp3.
the reason is cause those files don't show up in my windows media player list/library, if i right click them there is only an option to open them in other players i have instaleed, yet i have windows as my default, even if i choose other prgrams and select to open the files with windows media player the files will play but still won't add to the library.
I like the ease of using windows since i have for years(just used to it), for burning copies of cd's, and since those file types won't add to the library for some reason so i can just drag over to the burn section and easily copy, i don't know what to do except for to convert them.

now the dbpoweramp says i need a codec to convert .m4a to mp3. where do i find that?

if anyone has suggestions for how i can play and add .aac and .m4a files to my windows media player without having to convert my files i'm open for suggestions.

thanks

I have not given verdict in favour of any format but infact tried to work out sharp technicalities that I have observed in my research carried out for more then an year. As far as hardware compatablity is concered, here is an answer. Using Windows PC, you can easly get it played using DirectX. Just Install small codecs thar are Core AAC decoder and AAC Parser together which is less then 500 Kb and gives optimal results with any media player including WMP. The cooming version of Windows that is Windows 7 has native support already and no need to do any thing. Mac already have native support for M4A. As far as Popular hardware players are concerned, Apple iPod, Microsoft Zune, Crown iAudo, Creative Zen all support M4A. All Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Samsung and LG phones support it. What else you are looking far. Of course it is not supported by cheep Unbranded MP3 Players but then quality comparison should not be a concern with them. Now its ones own reason to choose. As far as final verdict if someone has realy sharp ears goes to iTunes M4A with VBR. Its best in all lossy formats.

Naveen