Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

[DudeBoyz]

I have 11.5 and use it all the time. I just bought the $14 version a bit ago and was really looking foward to the upgrade, especially after testing the beta.

That said, I have some concerns about the way Features and Licensing have been modified.

First, in the beta, you had the Multi-Core support. I honestly believe that single feature should be in BOTH the Reference version and the Standard version. To not put it in the standard version really does seem unfair.

Second, the fact that the Reference version does NOT have Free Lifetime Upgrades is pretty frustrating. You are getting users to pay TWICE what they paid for the Standard version, but you don't give them the same benefit in terms of upgrades?

Third, I'm kinda bugged that you guys split off features into a Reference version in the first place.

I paid for a Free Lifetime Upgrade - in good faith - but you decide to use a "technicality" to undermine that Free Lifetime Upgrade. You actually create a new, separate version and say "Well, when we said free lifetime, we meant only the current feature set. If we add any good stuff to it, you are going to have to pay."

That seems to violate the "spirit and intent" of the Free Lifetime Upgrade policy. It feels like a violation of trust.

You charged $14 for us to be able to use the FREE Lame encoder because you chose to build it in instead of supporting it externally. But that cost is mitigated by the fact that if you do end up paying, you get Free Lifetime Upgrades. Now you change the rules on us?

Look - I really like your program. I bought it, I dig it and I use it - alot. But this just seems disloyal and not well thought out.

I would greatly appreciate it if you would take these comments to heart. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just want to be able to express my opinion and have those thoughts considered.

Maybe you could do what Slysoft did with AnyDVD when they updated it to work with Vista.

They said - "OK, for our loyal customers who bought it for $39, you do get the free upgrade. But for all new customers, we are raising the price from $39 to $49, which will help defray the costs of modifying the program to work with Vista and doing future development."

Why not reward your current, loyal users who had the expectation of truly free lifetime upgrades?

Maybe even say that as of Version 12, new license purchases will no longer come with Free Lifetime Upgrades. Point release updates only for new buyers while legacy customers who purchased the product with the understanding that they would get free lifetime upgrades will be the only ones elligible for that feature - something like that maybe?

[hanschke]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

i hope that there will be a chance and the reference will get the lifetime upgrade and the basic not.

u have to pay more for the reference and so it is ok. people who dont need the reference can buy the basic and if there need more they have to pay.

so atm i have to licence now and have to pay for the lame encoder which is a free application.

[Deano]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

Urm, you are still getting lifetime upgrades to your REGISTERED version. You basically are still getting all the same features of the registered version in the new release (bar COM object stuff I think) but with all the new features brought by R12. The *added* features of the reference aren't going to make that much difference to the common user (ie Multi-Processors, Ultra-Secure Ripping and Commandline, for example).

Also, for current purchasers of the Registered license... there is an upgrade fee to get Reference. I paid £6 for that privaledge and feel that it was worth the very small price.

The Registered version is still lifetime upgrades. I believe *you* are the one being caught up in technicalities. R11.5 to R12 Registered is still a big leap in functionality, I just think you are blind to it because you are pissed off you don't get the *uber* flashy version (that you probably don't need anyway).

[Wayne]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

You charged $14 for us to be able to use the FREE Lame encoder because you chose to build it in instead of supporting it externally. But that cost is mitigated by the fact that if you do end up paying, you get Free Lifetime Upgrades. Now you change the rules on us?

You can't blame Spoon for this as he was forced into this by Thomson who own the rights to mp3. Even if he didn't use Lame he would have ended up having to pay for dMC being able to create mp3s.

BTW I can not fault Spoon for charging a fee for all the new features that he has spent quite a lot of time developing.

Wayne

[Spoon]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

See for our reasons:

http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?t=11896

The decision, wether you like it or not, is purely a business one, Power Pack users will get more updates because of this decision, not less. R12 is a huge update (took 15 months to program, we could have been lazy and stuck to r11.5, but we put the work and effort in).

[DudeBoyz]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

See for our reasons:

http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?t=11896

The decision, wether you like it or not, is purely a business one, Power Pack users will get more updates because of this decision, not less. R12 is a huge update (took 15 months to program, we could have been lazy and stuck to r11.5, but we put the work and effort in).

It's not like you guys do not deserve to get paid for your work - you really do.

However, I do think that this suggested model is not structured as well as it could / should be.

For example, not giving References users free lifetime upgrades while regular version users DO get the free lifetime upgrade seems unfair.

I posted something earlier about another possible idea - just to put it out there to hopefully bring a different angle that you can think about and maybe brainstorm on to get you focused on a different paradigm.

Please give it a look and take it with the positive intent it was meant to convey:

While there isn't a lifetime upgrades, the upgrade from dMC r12 to dMC r13 will be less than the price of the PowerPack. So yes, its not free, but it is a low-cost update. Besides, nobody forced you to purchase Reference.

Why not do something simpler.

dbPowerAmp purchases made from April 16th (day after tax day) on, will no longer be include Free Lifetime Updates. This is due in part to ongoing licensing fees and increasing development costs.

However, all existing and new customers who purchase dbPowerAmp on April 15th or earlier will still be entitled to Free Lifetime Updates. This is in keeping with our initial committment to our loyal customers.

Then reduce the models from 3 back to 2:

Free (as is now)
Pro ($24.95)

Future Upgrades (for those buying after April 16th) will be $9.95 or $12.95 for say version 13 or 14, etc.

This keeps your promise to customers you made earlier. It also gives people incentive to purchase dbPowerAmp 12 quickly - before April 16th, which may help increase the number of customers you have at a much faster rate than it might otherwise.

So then, you get to walk away from the burdensome long-term Free Lifetime Upgrades model (for future customers) into a more realistic cost model that will reward you for your investment in making dbPowerAmp a more robust, more efficient and more capable product.

[Spoon]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

>This keeps your promise to customers you made earlier.

To be clear, we have not broken any promises, we have updated Music Converter with a huge update and given it out more Power Pack features to registered users (even ones who bought it 5 years ago). It has always been very clear the features of Power Pack, it has also been very clear that we have never promised to add Fraunhofer codec, Multi-cpu handling, Broadcast wave format to the Power Pack. We did promise to update the program, which we have done in spades...

Presently I am rewriting All codecs, for all users, how is that breaking a promise?

If you have to power pack, you still have it, it is still updated (read R13 will have even more features, not less).

The $14 a Power Pack bought would not even pay for the license costs for codecs that Reference will eventually ship with.

I am sorry you are not happy, I think asking us to change our model that is now in place, change our pricing, is asking too much.

[DudeBoyz]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

I am sorry you are not happy, I think asking us to change our model that is now in place, change our pricing (and from the other thread - album art tag editor - to add a certain feature you wanted adding to R12 and then go back and re-release it), is asking too much.

I don't think I mentioned an Album Art Tag Editor, by the way.

I still think your approach is wrong and does a disservice to loyal users who were promised Free Lifetime Upgrades. The entire scheme just doesn't seem well thought out.

I also think you may have a heck of a time convincing people to buy the Reference version when they don't get Free Lifetime Upgrades and purchasers of the less expensive Standard version do.

It does seem you are set in your ways and are not very open to input, but at least you gave me a listen. Thanks for that.

[Teknojnky]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

I agree 110% with you Dudeboyz.

[Spoon]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

@DudeBoyz, appologies - confused with a poster with a very similar name.

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At the end of a day, we are a business, and this decision means we are here for the long term, not forced into developing some kind of unrelated product to make ends meet. In 5 years we will still be here, if we didnt change the product line-up that might have been in question (in which case free updates for Power Pack would mean nothing). It also means we would not be forced to 'sell out' to a big name, that has happened many times before, the product is renamed, comes under the bigger company umbrella and all updates for the pre-bought-out-company cease.

> a disservice to loyal users who were promised Free Lifetime Upgrades

Release 12 had more upgrades (for Power Pack users), in a shorter time frame then any of the previous 11 releases. This is a case where more is less in some peoples eyes.

[DudeBoyz]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

@DudeBoyz, appologies - confused with a poster with a very similar name.

----

At the end of a day, we are a business, and this decision means we are here for the long term, not forced into developing some kind of unrelated product to make ends meet. In 5 years we will still be here, if we didnt change the product line-up that might have been in question (in which case free updates for Power Pack would mean nothing). It also means we would not be forced to 'sell out' to a big name, that has happened many times before, the product is renamed, comes under the bigger company umbrella and all updates for the pre-bought-out-company cease.

> a disservice to loyal users who were promised Free Lifetime Upgrades

Release 12 had more upgrades (for Power Pack users), in a shorter time frame then any of the previous 11 releases. This is a case where more is less in some peoples eyes.

I don't mind you making money and being a long-term stable company at all.

But I do disagree with the way you have decided to go about it.

I want you to earn a living - you make a good product and it's very useful. But there are some glaring inconsistencies in terms of licensing, and the model itself is more complex and drawn out than it need be.

There is a way to make money and build goodwill at the same time. But to split the product up and not even give the Reference folks lifetime free upgrades when Standard users get it - that just doesn't seem to make much sense.

But when all is said and done, if you have your mind made up, nothing I or anyone else says is likely to matter, sadly.

[Teknojnky]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

If I may, one of the key selling points of the power pack from a consumer point of view, is/was the lifetime updates.

The primary issue I have as a consumer is, we pay a premium for the premium 'reference' product, which while you (illustrate) quote as "Reference would not suit the majority of Power Pack purchasers, increased complexity would work against it.", is a paradox because dmc/powerpack/et al is already an 'advanced' user centric product.

So we pay extra money for more features, but get less upgradeability. :headbang:

Also, several of the features only included reference (ie logging options, multiple cpu support, c2 pointers, dynamic naming!) I consider basic features of any product of the calibre that is dmc. These features nearly force people into buying reference if they want to get the flexibility that should have been in the base (powerpack) product.

Advanced codecs, scripting, etc could be considered more advanced than basic, I don't see a problem so much with those being cost extra features. They will not make or break the usefullness of the core app.

Personally, I don't need anything but FLAC, c2/cache, ultrasecure, multicpu support, replaygain, dynamic naming, yet I had to pay for all extra junk that I don't need or want like professional codecs, mp3 license which I don't want or need, amg, and so on.

I'm also concerned, how the powerpack portion/features of reference upgrades will be handled in the future when someone chooses not to upgrade to latest full reference version r13+, ie having r12 reference, but how to upgrade to r13 powerpack without losing the features that are part of r12. Sounds like a logistical nightmare for both users and developers.

Perhaps you will let R12 ref users upgrade to 13, but disable the additional r13 features... boy that sure is gonna be frustrating.

Maybe some history reading is in order. Now granted you are not over charging previous customers much to go from previous powerpack versions to r12 ref, old powerpack users save 2 bux 14? + 12 = 26, new/future powerpack users will have pay extra for the priviledge of upgrading to reference 18 + 12 = 30, vs paying 28 for reference with no previous versions.

Maybe you can still see why the resistance to such changes. To me it's like buying a new car with a special "life time free gas", however since gas was only 1.25 when you bought the car and its now 2 to 3$+ they only give you 1.25 towards the current cost, or if you wanted to use premium gas instead of regular (after all you bought a high performance sports car), you have to pay the difference between the regular and premium cost. Makes that life time free gas seem not so free any more.

Anyway, this post has gotten too long already, and I'm sure you know all this stuff already and we will have to agree to disagree.

[LtData]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

@Teknojnky - You not wanting/needing the mp3 license is a moot point, as you get it with the PowerPack anyway. Also, remember that Spoon said there would be a smaller upgrade cost to go from r12 to r13, you don't have to re-purchase the product.

Additionally, from my admittedly limited exposure to multi-threaded processes, it is a very complicated endeavor that requires a lot of work to make sure the threads don't "step on each others toes".

Now, I have a question for you two: Did the PowerPack lose any features? Do they lose life-time updates? No. dBpowerAMP Reference is a new product that introduces new features. Old users can upgrade to Reference if they want but they are NOT forced to.

I think Spoon has been letting us off easy with lifetime upgrades, personally, and I thank him very much for it. Remember, when Sveta was split from the PowerPack, all of the old PowerPack users STILL got Sveta even though the new ones did not.

[Teknojnky]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

@Teknojnky - You not wanting/needing the mp3 license is a moot point, as you get it with the PowerPack anyway. Also, remember that Spoon said there would be a smaller upgrade cost to go from r12 to r13, you don't have to re-purchase the product.

Thats good news, but it's also in the future, and as we all see things change in the future.

Additionally, from my admittedly limited exposure to multi-threaded processes, it is a very complicated endeavor that requires a lot of work to make sure the threads don't "step on each others toes".

I can understand making the lower level process multithread/cpu efficient can be quite an undertaking, however breaking up single independent tasks into threads and putting them on different cpus is fairly simple (ie separate rip and encode threads = easy, encoding 1 file via multiple cpu = hard).

Now, I have a question for you two: Did the PowerPack lose any features? Do they lose life-time updates? No. dBpowerAMP Reference is a new product that introduces new features. Old users can upgrade to Reference if they want but they are NOT forced to.

I am a new user and was not a powerpack purchaser, so I do not know what, if anything application featurewise is added/changed/removed/obsolete. However, the core objection is the removeable of life time upgrades and the prospect that what you pay for today becomes obsoleted in 6 months (for reference), which is not the same for powerpack.

I think Spoon has been letting us off easy with lifetime upgrades, personally, and I thank him very much for it. Remember, when Sveta was split from the PowerPack, all of the old PowerPack users STILL got Sveta even though the new ones did not.

I wasn't around then, but if lifetime upgrades is such a hardship then they should have thought about that before selling them.

Dudeboyz said it far better than I can, so I'll just quote it.

I want you to earn a living - you make a good product and it's very useful. But there are some glaring inconsistencies in terms of licensing, and the model itself is more complex and drawn out than it need be.

There is a way to make money and build goodwill at the same time. But to split the product up and not even give the Reference folks lifetime free upgrades when Standard users get it - that just doesn't seem to make much sense.

I bought poweramp reference because its a great product and I want to support innovative products and developers. What I don't like is what I view as crippling (as in not providing the additional basic functionality, even if the overall functionality has remained constant) of the base version (powerpack) to milk the user of additional fundage on top of the restricted upgrade paths in the future.

Free upgrades to versions that improve an existing feature set while specifically excluding the best parts = not an upgrade.

In the interest of providing positive feedback, what I *would* have paid for would be say $29 to maybe even up to $49 for the full suite of dbpoweramp products (regardless if I'd use them or not) with full free lifetime upgrades.

Anyway I digress, I like the product, I don't like the terms. Cie la vie, but I don't see myself paying for R13, and if image/cue support gets pushed back to r13 or greater then I will just do without or use something else. :komisch12

Thanks to Spoon for a great app thus far, and thanks for reading/listening even if you disagree.

[Spoon]

Re: Concerns about Release 12 Licensing and Features

>dmc/powerpack/et al is already an 'advanced' user centric product.

That pretty much ceased to be once the price was dropped to $14 and it included the mp3 license, I am guessing that 9 out of 10 purchasers do it for the mp3 encoder license, not the Power Pack (I can tell that because there used to be a Power Pack on its own and the number increase with a forced mp3 license).

>and the model itself is more complex and drawn out than it need be.

We are in a tough business (right now we have 1 law suit pending, have fended off 3 in the last 5 years and paid huge settlement costs for previous dbpoweramp free mp3 versions). We have to change to adapt and survive, sometimes make tough decisions.