Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

[chinni]

What is the difference between Album gain and Track gain? I am still reading and trying to understand. I understood that gain implies all the songs playing at same volume level. I guess it is reference level.

Does track gain means only all the songs in the same album play at same level and album gain means to play all songs from any album at the same level? What is standard practice? I guess people check both.

What is EBU R128 gain? Do people use this? I am planning to start rip all my media and want to make sure I don't need to redo. Thanks for your help.

[Spoon]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

Track gain takes tracks individually, album gain uses all tracks of an album to match.

EBU R128 is a newer way to calculate gain, you should use one or the other.

[garym]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

What is the difference between Album gain and Track gain? I am still reading and trying to understand. I understood that gain implies all the songs playing at same volume level. I guess it is reference level.

Does track gain means only all the songs in the same album play at same level and album gain means to play all songs from any album at the same level? What is standard practice? I guess people check both.

What is EBU R128 gain? Do people use this? I am planning to start rip all my media and want to make sure I don't need to redo. Thanks for your help.

You should add BOTH track and album gain tag values to your files. Track values are good when playing tracks from different albums (random play). Album values are good because they try to keep the relative intra album track volume differences. I really like my squeezebox players (logitech media server) and its option for SMART GAIN. It uses track RG values when playing tracks from *different* albums but ALBUM RG values when playing tracks from same album.

regarding EBU R128, I've converted to using this method, but I set the LUFS to -18 rather than -23 (so it "matches" my older tracks with original RG tags and also matches the RG tags added by foobar2000 (which uses R128 method but at -18).

[chinni]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

You should add BOTH track and album gain tag values to your files. Track values are good when playing tracks from different albums (random play). Album values are good because they try to keep the relative intra album track volume differences. I really like my squeezebox players (logitech media server) and its option for SMART GAIN. It uses track RG values when playing tracks from *different* albums but ALBUM RG values when playing tracks from same album.

regarding EBU R128, I've converted to using this method, but I set the LUFS to -18 rather than -23 (so it "matches" my older tracks with original RG tags and also matches the RG tags added by foobar2000 (which uses R128 method but at -18).

Thanks for replies from you and spoon. The dbpoweramp tool allows to set track gain/album gain and EBU R128 at the same time. It uses check boxes and one can select all of them. If I check album gain/track gain and ebu r128, what does tool like foobar2000 uses?

If I start from scratch, is it recommended to just check ebu r128 with -23LUFS? If I set this value for all my media without setting track/album gain, all media should produce same decibles for the same volume I set at receiver right?

Also, I find songs set for track/album gain are playing at low sound when I maximize volume on the status bar when I played in foobar2000. There is an option in foobar to remove this gain, then immediately, the volume increased to loud. But it seems, foobar2000 is modifying the file itself. I could be wrong. How are you playing these music on computer where speakers are really small and maximum is reached quickly.

[garym]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

Thanks for replies from you and spoon. The dbpoweramp tool allows to set track gain/album gain and EBU R128 at the same time. It uses check boxes and one can select all of them. If I check album gain/track gain and ebu r128, what does tool like foobar2000 uses?

If I start from scratch, is it recommended to just check ebu r128 with -23LUFS? If I set this value for all my media without setting track/album gain, all media should produce same decibles for the same volume I set at receiver right?

Also, I find songs set for track/album gain are playing at low sound when I maximize volume on the status bar when I played in foobar2000. There is an option in foobar to remove this gain, then immediately, the volume increased to loud. But it seems, foobar2000 is modifying the file itself. I could be wrong. How are you playing these music on computer where speakers are really small and maximum is reached quickly.

In foobar2000, there are no settings. Creating RG tags in foobar2000 automatically uses the R128 method. But note it uses -18LUFS. So if you sometimes use foobar2000 to create RG tags and sometimes use dbpa, they won't be equal volume target. If you alway use dbpa for creating RG tags, I'd use -23LUFS as that is the "standard". In any case, I would suggest using the R128 method and create both track and album tags. And yes, once you do this, if you play back these songs, they should be played (approximately) with the same volume across tracks (rather than you having to change the volume setting for each song manually with your player volume control).

Use of a player that reads/uses RG tags almost always DECREASES the volume. This is because most modern music/CDs are mastered "loud" (unfortunately). Foobar2000 is NOT modifying the file itself at all. It is simply using the RG tag values and adjusting the volume downward.

You can turn "use RG tags" off and on in foobar2000 in Preferences > Playback. If you find that your volume is too low on your playback computer, I'd just adjust the "preamp slider" for "with RG info" to make everything play louder. The RG values will still make them all approximately equal volume, but the preamp slider can make them all a bit louder.

The volume of a computer with small speakers varies by computer. I have laptops with built in speakers that are quite loud. Others have very low volume. In general, I don't find the speakers of a laptop to ever be good enough for music listening. I have some powered speakers (audioengine A2s) connected to my work desktop and these can blast a space the size of a living room! For laptop use, I use headphones. NOTE: Be sure you have the Windows volume turned up to 100% (click on speaker icon in windows tray). Then control your volume with the controls in foobar2000.

[chinni]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

In foobar2000, there are no settings. Creating RG tags in foobar2000 automatically uses the R128 method. But note it uses -18LUFS. So if you sometimes use foobar2000 to create RG tags and sometimes use dbpa, they won't be equal volume target. If you alway use dbpa for creating RG tags, I'd use -23LUFS as that is the "standard". In any case, I would suggest using the R128 method and create both track and album tags. And yes, once you do this, if you play back these songs, they should be played (approximately) with the same volume across tracks (rather than you having to change the volume setting for each song manually with your player volume control).

Use of a player that reads/uses RG tags almost always DECREASES the volume. This is because most modern music/CDs are mastered "loud" (unfortunately). Foobar2000 is NOT modifying the file itself at all. It is simply using the RG tag values and adjusting the volume downward.

You can turn "use RG tags" off and on in foobar2000 in Preferences > Playback. If you find that your volume is too low on your playback computer, I'd just adjust the "preamp slider" for "with RG info" to make everything play louder. The RG values will still make them all approximately equal volume, but the preamp slider can make them all a bit louder.

The volume of a computer with small speakers varies by computer. I have laptops with built in speakers that are quite loud. Others have very low volume. In general, I don't find the speakers of a laptop to ever be good enough for music listening. I have some powered speakers (audioengine A2s) connected to my work desktop and these can blast a space the size of a living room! For laptop use, I use headphones. NOTE: Be sure you have the Windows volume turned up to 100% (click on speaker icon in windows tray). Then control your volume with the controls in foobar2000.

Thanks a lot for taking time to explain the stuff. I am going to read couple of times to digest about it.

I am only playing in foobar2000 and did not set any RG in foobar2000. I set RG from dbpoweramp. When I find the volume is too low while playing using foobar200, I did select song and clicked on Replay gain->Remove RG information from files. I thought it really updated the file. I need to verify.

I just started project to make flac out of my cds. So, I will check all of these as you suggested
track gain
album gain
epu r128 with -23LUFS

I understood that these settings will work fine if I am starting brand new project and wanted to stay loudness at the same level for random play or album play. I read that ebu r128 is better standard than track gain and album gain. When, flac file is played by foobar2000, I guess ebu r128 value will override track or album gain. So, basically player might not use album gain or track gain values when ebu r128 is also set for the music.

Let me know if I am not right.

[garym]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

Thanks a lot for taking time to explain the stuff. I am going to read couple of times to digest about it.

I am only playing in foobar2000 and did not set any RG in foobar2000. I set RG from dbpoweramp. When I find the volume is too low while playing using foobar200, I did select song and clicked on Replay gain->Remove RG information from files. I thought it really updated the file. I need to verify.

I just started project to make flac out of my cds. So, I will check all of these as you suggested
track gain
album gain
epu r128 with -23LUFS

I understood that these settings will work fine if I am starting brand new project and wanted to stay loudness at the same level for random play or album play. I read that ebu r128 is better standard than track gain and album gain. When, flac file is played by foobar2000, I guess ebu r128 value will override track or album gain. So, basically player might not use album gain or track gain values when ebu r128 is also set for the music.

Let me know if I am not right.

I think you're still a bit confused. First do NOT tell foobar2000 to remove the RG tags!!!! You can go into Foobar2000 settings (FILE > PREFERENCES > PLAYBACK), and under ReplayGain you canuse the dropdown menu for Source mode and select "none". This will tell foobar2000 not to *use* the RG tags. You don't want to remove them as you might decide to use them later or in a different player.

Also when you play in foobar2000 R128 value is not overriding track and album gain values....these are all the SAME thing basically. the R128 values are what are saved as your Track and Album RG values. R128 is just a different/newer method for making volume adjustments from tag values. These R128 values are written to the RG track and album tags. They are NOT two different things. These RG tag values will be used by any player that can recognize and use RG tag values (e.g., foobar2000, squeezeboxes, winamp, etc.). I think you're confused in thinking that the R128 and RG values are two separate things.

[chinni]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

I think you're still a bit confused. First do NOT tell foobar2000 to remove the RG tags!!!! You can go into Foobar2000 settings (FILE > PREFERENCES > PLAYBACK), and under ReplayGain you canuse the dropdown menu for Source mode and select "none". This will tell foobar2000 not to *use* the RG tags. You don't want to remove them as you might decide to use them later or in a different player.

Also when you play in foobar2000 R128 value is not overriding track and album gain values....these are all the SAME thing basically. the R128 values are what are saved as your Track and Album RG values. R128 is just a different/newer method for making volume adjustments from tag values. These R128 values are written to the RG track and album tags. They are NOT two different things. These RG tag values will be used by any player that can recognize and use RG tag values (e.g., foobar2000, squeezeboxes, winamp, etc.). I think you're confused in thinking that the R128 and RG values are two separate things.

Thanks a lot for the explanation. I did not understand properly before. I just did some experiment. I got the following values.

Alburm gain checked
Track gain checked
Ebu 128 unchecked.

Generated value for "Track gain", "Album gain" around -8db
---------------------
Alburm gain checked
Track gain checked
Ebu 128 checked.

Generated value for "Track gain", "Album gain" around -14db
---------------------------------------
Alburm gain unchecked
Track gain unchecked
Ebu 128 checked.

It does not generate any name/value pairs for Track gain/album gain
------------------------------------------------------
As you mentioned, depending on ebu 128 checked or not, it is using different algorithm to generate average level of loudness to set as meta data. The ebu 128 method is generating more attenuated signal. The checking of ebu 128 itself does not have any meaning. I also find lot of video/articles on loudness war. It is more clear now.

[garym]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

Thanks a lot for the explanation. I did not understand properly before. I just did some experiment. I got the following values.

Alburm gain checked
Track gain checked
Ebu 128 unchecked.

Generated value for "Track gain", "Album gain" around -8db
---------------------
Alburm gain checked
Track gain checked
Ebu 128 checked.

Generated value for "Track gain", "Album gain" around -14db
---------------------------------------
Alburm gain unchecked
Track gain unchecked
Ebu 128 checked.

It does not generate any name/value pairs for Track gain/album gain
------------------------------------------------------
As you mentioned, depending on ebu 128 checked or not, it is using different algorithm to generate average level of loudness to set as meta data. The ebu 128 method is generating more attenuated signal. The checking of ebu 128 itself does not have any meaning. I also find lot of video/articles on loudness war. It is more clear now.

Yes, this is all as expected. the ebu128 method typically gives about 5db more volume reduction (in your example it was 6db). I think you've got it now. But still note that within foobar2000, once you have these tags, you can still play with the "preamp" (file > preferences > playblack) to make things overall louder if your computer volume is still to low.... (but a better answer is to play your computer feeding something with more power)

[chinni]

Re: Album gain vs Track gain and EBU R128

It is clear now. Thanks for enlightening me to know all about replay gain.