Two Drives with Different Results

[Chip]

Hi,
I have a question that I hope someone can help me with concerning ripping the same disc using two different drives.
I am using a WinXP SP3 laptop.
I am using registered r13 software.
I have the system configured for UltraSecure.

Internal drive is Matshita DVD-RAM UJ-812 configured as:
Ripping with drive 'F: [MATSHITA - DVD-RAM UJ-812 ]', Drive offset: 102, Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active, Using C2: Yes, Cache: 4 KB, FUA Cache Invalidate: No
Pass 1 Drive Speed: Max, Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
Ultra:: Vary Drive Speed: Yes, Min Passes: 3, Max Passes: 6, Finish After Clean Passes: 2
Bad Sector Re-rip:: Drive Speed: Max, Maximum Re-reads: 34offset = +102,

External drive is Plextor PX-810UF attached by USB configured as:
Ripping with drive 'G: [PLEXTOR - DVDR PX-810UF ]', Drive offset: 667, Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active, Using C2: Yes, Cache: None, FUA Cache Invalidate: Yes
Pass 1 Drive Speed: Max, Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
Ultra:: Vary Drive Speed: Yes, Min Passes: 3, Max Passes: 6, Finish After Clean Passes: 2
Bad Sector Re-rip:: Drive Speed: Max, Maximum Re-reads: 34

The disc is Billy Burnette : Memphis in Manhattan
This is a relatively new CD that appears to be in excellent physical condition.
The disc was not found in AccurateRip.
When I ripped this disc using the external Plextor drive I see the following messages:
Insecure on tracks 1, 5, and 6.
Secure with Warnings on tracks 2, 4, and 10.
Secure on tracks 3, 7, 8, 9, and 11 without warnings.
I then ripped this CD using the internal Matshita and can see the status as Secure without warnings on all tracks.
I have created a log file that shows the Plextor errors and Matshita success.

I have several other CDs that get Insecure on some tracks with the Plextor and not the Mashita.

I now wonder if I have the one of the drives configured wrong.
I have looked in the documentation but I am very new to this and do not really know what to do next to make sure that I am ripping in the best possible way.

Can anyone help me understand this mystery?

Thanks you,
Chip

[bhoar]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

Are you sure the Cache and FUA settings are correct for each drive?

e.g. is the 810 really a "true" plextor or is it a rebrand? If not, then FUA should not be enabled.

-brendan

[Chip]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

I used dBpoweramp to test the drives and set the values for Offset, FUA and Cache. I accepted the values that were determined by the software.

The technical specifications for the drives from from dBpoweramp are:

Manufacturer: MATSHITA
CD Drive: DVD-RAM UJ-812
Firmware: K104
Serial: 406250KME1545091114
Maximum Speed: 4234 KB/sec (x24)
Current Speed: 4234 KB/sec (x24)
Spin-down After: 32 seconds
Buffer Size: 2 MB
Accurate Stream: Yes
C2 Error Pointers: Yes
Reads ISRC: Yes
Reads UPC: Yes

and

Manufacturer: PLEXTOR
CD Drive: DVDR PX-810UF
Firmware: 1.00
Serial: 4
Maximum Speed: 8467 KB/sec (x47)
Current Speed: 8467 KB/sec (x47)
Spin-down After: 2 minutes
Buffer Size: 2 MB
Accurate Stream: Yes
C2 Error Pointers: Yes
Reads ISRC: Yes
Reads UPC: Yes

About the rebranding question I do not know how to tell. I do know the Plextor drive came in a box with Plextor markings (I still have the box) and has Plextor markings on the case, it is an external drive.

[Spoon]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

For the 810 unless you see someone else saying it has FUA, then disable it and use the cache invalidation.

[EliC]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

as far as I know the 810 is not a true plextor and does not support FUA or over-reading.

[Chip]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

Hello,
I have disabled FUA and used dBpoweramp to reset the Cache size to 39KB.
I have never had the over read option checked in my trials.
The Plextor (or whatever) configuration is now:
Ripping with drive 'G: [PLEXTOR - DVDR PX-810UF ]', Drive offset: 667, Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active, Using C2: Yes, Cache: 39 KB, FUA Cache Invalidate: No
Pass 1 Drive Speed: Max, Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
Ultra:: Vary Drive Speed: Yes, Min Passes: 3, Max Passes: 6, Finish After Clean Passes: 2
Bad Sector Re-rip:: Drive Speed: Max, Maximum Re-reads: 34

I have now reripped the Billy Burnette CD.
The results with the changed setup are:
Secure tracks 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11
Secure with Warnings tracks 1, 4, 6, 9,

The Plextor drive is still giving Secure Warnings where the Matshita does not.
It seems better but should they match or should I consider this normal?
Which drive do you think I should use?
Which would you use?

Thanks for all your help,
Chip

[BugsBunny]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

How 'bout not setting the speed to max?
With faster ripping speeds the likelyhood of errors increases.
The Plextor runs quite a bit faster then your other drive when setting both to Max.

[bhoar]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

How 'bout not setting the speed to max?
With faster ripping speeds the likelyhood of errors increases.
The Plextor runs quite a bit faster then your other drive when setting both to Max.

That depends on the drive. I've seen advice on writers that it can be a good idea to set the *write* speed one notch below max, esp. if you are unsure about your media.

But contemporary drives have relatively mature retry strategies for reading from audio CDs and will slow down as necessary. Usually.

Of course, it can't hurt to try a notch below max speed.

-brendan

[Chip]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

I have tried setting the drive to a lower speed and still get the Warning messages.
I have reripped the same track three times just now and I can see that Ultra Secure changes the drive speed with each pass.
Pass 1 - speed 4.5 to 4.6
Pass 2 - speed 7 to 8
Pass 3 - speed 11
I also noticed that the number of frames being reripped after the three Ultra Secure passes also varies. This does not seem to make sense to me. I would think if the CD has errors then they should be on the same frames each time resulting in the same number being reripped.
Am I missing something?

Can this have something to do with the Cache size?
dBpoweramp detects a cache size of 39 KB.
PlexTools tells me the drive has a 2048 KB buffer.
Do these two numbers relate to each other or should they be considered seperate?

I would like to thank everyone who is giving me ideas and educating me in this new world.

Chip

[bhoar]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

Try an experiment on the problematic drive.

Select two tracks that usually require re-reads. I say two tracks because otherwise this may take too long if you do the whole CD.

Run the test once with the cache set to the smallish detected value.

Run the test again, but this time set the cache to 2048KB.

Post both results. The second test will take a lot longer if you have a large # of rereads, so think carefully about which two tracks to pick.

-brendan

[BugsBunny]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

Is the problematic drive used a lot?
If so maybe the lens got dusty and therefore you get reading problems.
A car radio of mine once could not read CDs very well anymore - after cleaning it worked 100% again.
Same thing for a Plextor DVD burner I have.
I have cleand different CD and DVD drives and never hat a problem afterwards.

So if the drive is used quite a bit maybe a lens cleaning will help.
But don't use that cleaning CDs they can damage the lens.

If you got some techincal skills you can manually clean the lens. That's more effective and less harming to the drive.
Get some isopropyl alcohol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol) and some cotton buds.
You have to open the drive (remove the cover), then locate the lens put some isopropyl alcohol on a cotton bud and gently rub the lens with the cotton bud.
Look on the cotton bud if there is some dirt on it and look if the lense is clean.
If the lens is clean close the drive, then it's finished.
If you lack of technical skills maybe you can ask someone to help you.

[Chip]

Re: Two Drives with Different Results

dBPoweramp Ultra Secure Drive Read Cache Detect
dBpoweramp: Detect Drive Cache
Detected cache size 39 KB (17 Frames)

PlexTools detects
Vendor: PLEXTOR
Product: DVDR PX-810UF
Firmware: V1.00 4
Buffer Capacity: 2048 KB
Does not list a drive offset
Attached via USB 2.0 - confirmed in Device Manager

Artist: Billy Burnette
Album: Memphis in Manhattan
Year: 2006
Label: Chesky Records
Catalog: JD229
UPC: 090368029928

Re-ripping the CD with two different Cache sizes

01 W W W W same
02 W W W S different
03 W S S S different
04 W W W W same
05 S W S S different
06 W W S W different
07 S S S S same
08 S S S S same
09 S S S S same
10 W W W W same
11 S S S S same
Column 1 = Track Number
Column 2 = Rip 1 - Cache set to 39 KB (detected value)
Column 3 = Rip 2 - Cache set to 2048 KB (buffer value)
Column 4 = Rip 3 - Cache set back to 39 KB
Column 5 = Rip 4 - Cache set back to 2048 KB
Column 6 = Results of 4 rips - shows inconsistent results
W = Secure with Warnings
S = Secure without warnings

I have now ripped this CD 4 times in this session and seem to get different results each time.
I have tried everything that has been suggested by everyone who was kind enough to offer support to me over the last couple of days. Thanks to all of you.
I really do not know what else to try.

I then ripped this CD twice using the Matshita internal drive on my laptop and got a Secure without warnings rip each time.
I am going to continue ripping my CDs using the internal Matshita drive because it seems to give more consistent results.

I am surprised by these results since I have read about the quality of the Plextor drives in several threads. Maybe I just have a defective unit. Anyway before relegating the drive to the garbage pile I have written to Plextor Technical support asking for advice.
I will post their response when I receive it. They say 48 hours for a response.

Thanks,
Chip