dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

**tourrilhes** · March 18, 2008, 05:36 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

Originally posted by pls1

OK so what does it mean to get the different checksums with "read into lead out" OFF across the four drives?

Phil

Hi,

I've had that a lot. Most likely it means that the 4 drives have different offsets.

Because most drive have a positive offset (i.e. the music starts after after the start of ripping), the last bit of music is lost (i.e. the rip stop before the music end). Using overread in lead out allow to rip beyond the rip end and therefore rip to the music end. Most CDs have NULL samples at that point, so it doesn't matter, a few CDs have noise, and therefore the tracks are different.

The way to check that is to use the AccurateRip CRC, not the rip CRC. Another way is to use a WAV comparator program (EAC has that buit in) and check that the track difference is indeed only at the very end. In most case, you will see that the difference occur in the last track at a time after the official end of the track from the TOC.

Note that on CDs that are full, the last track has often ripping errors, so you want to check that as well.

Good luck...

Jean

**pls1** · March 18, 2008, 06:32 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

OK I think understand your point but what i am not clear about is why i should get different results with two different drives that read into the lead out. Even with different offsets, if the settings are correct in dbpoweramp, i would expect the same result. The reason I first noticed this was I had a disc where all but the last track matched accurate rip. On this disc, and several others like it, I could get a match with accurate rip by changing the drive, that is either to one that does or one that doesn't read into the lead out. There are still a few like the ones I had previously referred to.

Contrary to your observations of CDs in your collection, all of the CDs I have found so far are short total lengths and not full at all.

I had put off ripping my collection because I didn't want to get into the internals of audio processing, oh well. I'm just going to mark the CDs I find and come back later when have some time to look at what is at the end of the discs with some additional software.

Thanks for the help.

Phil

**Spoon** · March 18, 2008, 07:32 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

The reason I first noticed this was I had a disc where all but the last track matched accurate rip.

This has nothing to do with overreading, Accurate Rip only calculates to the end - 5 frames, unless you have a drive with an offset > 5 frames (there is not one) all drives will return the same AccurateRip CRC (what happens right at the end of the CD does not matter). You are seeing a diffrent problem (of a drive which is not ripping the CD correctly).

**pls1** · March 18, 2008, 10:02 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

Originally posted by Spoon

You are seeing a different problem (of a drive which is not ripping the CD correctly).

So now I'm really confused.

I've got at least two physical drives of the same drive model across four different (chipsets and offsets) drive models. Each model gives a consistent checksum that dbpoweramp says is secure and there are no frame re-rips. All the checksums are different across the drive models. All 12 instances out of about the 10,000 tracks I've ripped so far are the last track on the CD.

The logical implication of your quote is that at least four of the five models are ripping these track improperly.

What am I missing?

Phil

**Spoon** · March 19, 2008, 08:53 AM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

Yes correct, I have seen drives where the accurate stream fails mid rip (perhaps on your disc somewhere on the last track), when this happens it is as though the drive suddenly has a different offset. I have seen it myself on a certain disc a Plextor 708a & 230a.

**pls1** · March 19, 2008, 02:04 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

Just to be sure, because the self consistent checksums are what confused me.

1. the failure is caused by some specific artifact on the disc that all models of drives "fail" at because otherwise can't understand why eight drives across four models would "fail" to consistent to different relative offsets and hence checksums on multiple drives.

2. Can you recommend a software tool (cost isn't really important) that would allow me to easily examine this at the detail level not be a major pain to learn, as well as be a generally useful digital audio tool.

Thanks for your help,

Phil

**tourrilhes** · March 19, 2008, 04:03 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

Originally posted by pls1

Just to be sure, because the self consistent checksums are what confused me.

Don't worry, you are not the only one to be confused, I am as well.

Originally posted by pls1

2. Can you recommend a software tool (cost isn't really important) that would allow me to easily examine this at the detail level not be a major pain to learn, as well as be a generally useful digital audio tool.

Phil

Personally, I would start with the "Compare WAV" function in EAC. You don't need to configure EAC for that, no need to rip with EAC, you just point that tool to the two WAV tracks on your HDD and it will give you a nice diff. I use Foobar to convert from FLAC to WAV. I've used it with great success and it's really simple and quick.

dBamp may have the same function, Spoon should be able to tell you about it.

Obviously, this is not a complete analysis tool, but a good start and it's good enough for me.

Jean

**pls1** · March 19, 2008, 07:00 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

What bothers me is the "Secure" message from dbpoweramp but mismatching consistent CRCs accross the drive models.

Originally posted by Spoon

This has nothing to do with overreading...,CRC (what happens right at the end of the CD does not matter). You are seeing a diffrent problem (of a drive which is not ripping the CD correctly).

After a quick test this error IS at the very end of the last track of the CD. EAC lists the timing as 4.26.25.

The mis-matching samples are listed by EAC WAV compare as at 4.26.316 to 333 to 345 depending on the drive model pairing. The dbpoweramp logs show the rip as secure and the dbpoweramp log CRCs are still different by drive model and consistent across different drives of the same model. Read into lead-in/out is definitely OFF

Plextools PRO XL reports no errors on its DAE and no C2 errors on the quality check. The Plextools WAV files from the three drives match each other but DO NOT match the dbpoweramp WAV file.. I'm out of lunch hour time so I can't compare EAC rips since I needed to install it for the compare and it is not configured.

I probably won't get back to this until Saturday but I'll bet my other 10 last track CDs will show the same pattern of differences at the very end.

Any comments???

Phil

**Spoon** · March 19, 2008, 07:55 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

What is the exact length of the track?

**pls1** · March 19, 2008, 09:00 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

The logs in dbpoweramp from the three drive models all say:
"says Ripped LBA 171405 to 191380 (4:26)"
across the three drives Px-230/755/B900 with different dbpoweramp log CRC results.

EAC says the track length is 4.26.25. Not set up for ripping, maybe tonight

All Plextools Pro XL WAV files are of identical length at 46,981,244 bytes and compare as identical with EAC WAV compare.

for DB Poweramp the WAV files are of identical length at 46,981,444, bytes but not identical when compared with EAC's WAV compare.

all three drives will match to accuraterip (confidence 3 or greater) the last track of several other CDs both before and after this test so the drives are working properly.

I'm sticking with this CD out of ten similar behaving CDs because there is absolutely no damage. It is Harmonia Mundi HMC 90389 Musique Arabo-Andalouse. Total length printed on the outside of the jewel case is 42min 2 sec. with 14 tracks. 1991

What else should I look at?
Phil

**tourrilhes** · March 19, 2008, 11:41 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

Originally posted by pls1

After a quick test this error IS at the very end of the last track of the CD. EAC lists the timing as 4.26.25.

The mis-matching samples are listed by EAC WAV compare as at 4.26.316 to 333 to 345 depending on the drive model pairing.

The error is beyond the official end of track. This is exactly what I have and I believe it's related to the offset business. Personally, I would not bother about it, as I believe it's in the silence after the music.

Originally posted by pls1

All Plextools Pro XL WAV files are of identical length at 46,981,244 bytes and compare as identical with EAC WAV compare.

for DB Poweramp the WAV files are of identical length at 46,981,444, bytes but not identical when compared with EAC's WAV compare.

If I understand correctly, it seems that Plextools is cutting the track to its official lenght, and therefore don't read the part where there is difference. Have you tried to compare the Plextool WAV to the dBamp WAV ?

Originally posted by pls1

all three drives will match to accuraterip (confidence 3 or greater) the last track of several other CDs both before and after this test so the drives are working properly.

What else should I look at?
Phil

In my case, I decided to not worry and ignore this. I mean, the difference is not within the track, it's at a point after the track where you have silence or very silent noise. I would never hear it, and I can't really care about this kind of errors. If you are worried, you may want to cut the track to its official length and discard this extra junk.

I had one case where it happened within the track itself, on my SimpleMinds CD, and Spoon blamed EAC.

Jean

**pls1** · March 20, 2008, 01:16 AM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

I'm sorry I was in a hurry to get this done so here is what I left out of my lunchtime post:

1. I had assumed in my reply to your post of yesterday that this was a known "end of disc and end of track" problem. I was just marking these discs to analyze later. It was Spoon's post indicating otherwise that caused the EAC WAV compares today.

2. The WAV compares do NOT match between Plextools and dbpoweramp but the differences are at the EOF.

3. To comment on your post of a few minutes ago at Hydrogen, the dbpoweramp WAV files are different between burst and secure on one drive.
All my discrepancies are at end of disc. I just updated my written workflow for dbpoweramp (my wife and I are sharing the 5000 CD ripping project) since I have sufficient drive diversity and QC redundancy to catch discrepancies.

However, the "Secure" message from dbpoweamp is bothersome. I guess I'll set up EAC sometime as another Q/C alternative in addition to PlexTools ProXL for my "suspect" discs.

Thank you for all of your comments here and on the other two forums. Greynol, Spoons, yourself and a some others have been indispensable in keeping me forging ahead.

I abandoned this same ripping project a few years ago because of consistency and quality problems. I'm sure I'll complete the project this time in a few months.

Phil

**Spoon** · March 20, 2008, 12:18 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

4.26.25

30 samples offset = (30 / 44100) = 0.0006 seconds = 4.26.2506 which is not 4.26.316 something is amiss. Hold the mouse over the file and dBpoweramp will tell the number of audio samples, is it the same for all files, what is it?

**pls1** · March 20, 2008, 01:18 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

Originally posted by Spoon

4.26.25

Hold the mouse over the file and dBpoweramp will tell the number of audio samples, is it the same for all files, what is it?

The 4.6.25 is what EAC showed.

I needed to re-run these tests because the default for meta-data ID tags in dbpoweramp does not have the attribute "length" checked.

When I re-ripped all three drives show the same: "Length: 266333"

The EAC wave compare show identical file for the same drive "Secure" and "Burst"

The differences occur in the EAC WAV compares between drive models are at:
4.25.316-320 for the 900 to 230 model compare

4.26.331-343 for the 900 to 755 model compare

4.26.316-332 for the 755 to 230 model compare

Phil

**pls1** · March 20, 2008, 09:36 PM

Re: dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

Originally posted by pls1

The differences occur in the EAC WAV compares between drive models are at:
4.25.316-220 for the 900 to 230 model compare

4.26.331-343 for the 900 to 755 model compare

4.26.316-332 for the 755 to 230 model compare

Typo in the first compare, obviously it should be
4.25.316-320

dbpoweramp says drive cannot read into lead out; different results with it on

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