difference between 84kbps 44khz and 128kbps 44khz

[Jimbo2005]

Hi,

Just wondering. Is 64kbps 44khz FM quality? Or is it 128kbps 44khz? Why is there a quality difference even if the 44khz remains the same?

What is audio cassette quality? 64kbps 44khz or 128bkpz 44khz? FM quality? LP quality?

Thanks, please reply.

[LtData]

Technically, CD quality is 128kbps and FM quality is 96kbps. The reason there is a difference is the "kbps" affects how much data is stored about the signal per second. The more data that is stored, the better it sounds.

[petriburg]

And Cassette quality is analog wave, so no bitrate or sampling frequency! However, the actual bandwidth is a little limited due to the physical restraints of the tape itself.

[neilthecellist]

In my opinion, all of that is false to me. Come on now! If you convert CD audio to 128 kbps mp3, ogg, or wma, or mp4, or whatever lossy codec, face the truth: It does NOT sound CD quality. Actually, it sounds quite terrible.

[iTunesIsEvil]

In my opinion, all of that is false to me. Come on now! If you convert CD audio to 128 kbps mp3, ogg, or wma, or mp4, or whatever lossy codec, face the truth: It does NOT sound CD quality. Actually, it sounds quite terrible.

Actually IMHO AAC @ 128kbps and WMA @ 128kbps w/ 2Pass VBR sounds pretty darn good. So I wouldn't say that's the truth. Hearing is very very different between each person. Some of us pick up things others don't.

[Jimbo2005]

Thanks. Yes, CD quality is much much better of course.

To tell you the truth, I can't tell the difference between 128kbps and 64kbps. Maybe I have bad hearing.

[neilthecellist]

You're lucky to have bad hearing, believe it or not. Since I can tell the difference between an LAME encoded mp3 at 192 kbps and one at 224 kbps, I always have to live with the higher bitrate encoded file since my ears will not accept anything lower than that...

This also means it takes up a lot a disk space, so I usually resort to WMA or Ogg Vorbis to reduce file space.

[Jimbo2005]

What's worse, I can't tell the difference between audio cassette and CD (well, cassette has pffffffffffft noises and that's all.

Well, but my taste for girlfriends is very high though. Won't accept much less than certain dress sizes and looks similar to Cindy Crawford and a nice personality. E.g. she'd pay for my phone bills :D Therefore, it makes me kinda lonely. :cry:

[neilthecellist]

lol.

By the way, if you have bad hearing, you should try Ogg Vorbis encoded at 56 kbps, and then tell me if you still can't tell the difference.

[Jimbo2005]

Ogg Vorbis? Does that have better or higher sound quality than dbpoweramp's mp3s?

In fact, I can't tell the difference between that DTS surround sound and just plain dolby sound. (In DVDs)

[neilthecellist]

Ogg Vorbis? Does that have better or higher sound quality than dbpoweramp's mp3s?

Yah.. Ever played Grand Theft Auto Vice City? That used mp3s for audio, and the sound quality was bad. Now take a game like Unreal Tournament 2004, Unreal Championship II: Liandri Conflict, or Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, all of which used Ogg Vorbis for audio, and they were recorded at low bitrates as well. (~ 45-96 kbps) they sounded like surround sound too.


In fact, I can't tell the difference between that DTS surround sound and just plain dolby sound. (In DVDs)

(no comment)

[Jimbo2005]

Okay, I'll give it a try. Actually, I might have to do it in a few days' time.

Wonder if portable mp3 players would ever learn how to play ogg vorbis file formats in the future?

[neilthecellist]

Jimbo, I feel that you and I are lost in different time era's.

Numerous portable mp3 players can play Ogg Vorbis. http://www.iriveramerica.com/prod/hd/
http://search.ebay.com/Ogg_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8

[Jimbo2005]

Yes, that's great. ogg vorbis is the way to go. Can ipods or creative nomads play ogg vorbises?

I heard that mp3 compresses by guessing sounds that the human ear and brain ignores. E.g. if two instruments play at a time (at the same time), the louder instrument gets most disk space, whereas the softer sounding instrument doesn't get much disk space at all.

[neilthecellist]

Yes, that's great. ogg vorbis is the way to go. Can ipods or creative nomads play ogg vorbises?

iPods cannot. My friends say all the time, anyways, "F*** the iPod, stupid b****y Apple product."

I totally agree with my friends, the iPod sucks. The batteries die SOOO quickly, and the sound quality just isn't good, in my opinion. And no Ogg Vorbis support.

As for the Creative Nomad, I don't think it supports Ogg Vorbis. Use Google, my friend, it has answers to everything in this world! :)

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetailReview.do?pageno=2&oid=85404&order=D&com.broadvision.session.new=Yes&sortby=1&ct=0&BV_SessionID=@@@@0861245458.1112639945@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccceaddefjdkfeicfngcfkmdffhdfif.0

I heard that mp3 compresses by guessing sounds that the human ear and brain ignores. E.g. if two instruments play at a time (at the same time), the louder instrument gets most disk space, whereas the softer sounding instrument doesn't get much disk space at all.

kinda true. Although it doesn't pick out the frequencies that I can't hear! :)

[Jimbo2005]

iPods cannot. My friends say all the time, anyways, "F*** the iPod, stupid b****y Apple product."

I totally agree with my friends, the iPod sucks. The batteries die SOOO quickly, and the sound quality just isn't good, in my opinion. And no Ogg Vorbis support.

As for the Creative Nomad, I don't think it supports Ogg Vorbis. Use Google, my friend, it has answers to everything in this world! :)

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetailReview.do?pageno=2&oid=85404&order=D&com.broadvision.session.new=Yes&sortby=1&ct=0&BV_SessionID=@@@@0861245458.1112639945@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccceaddefjdkfeicfngcfkmdffhdfif.0



kinda true. Although it doesn't pick out the frequencies that I can't hear! :)
Yes... Why is ogg vorbis so much better with compression? What techniques do they use that are unique to mp3s?

[neilthecellist]

Maybe this will help. http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/

[iTunesIsEvil]

iPods cannot. My friends say all the time, anyways, "F*** the iPod, stupid b****y Apple product."

I totally agree with my friends, the iPod sucks. The batteries die SOOO quickly, and the sound quality just isn't good, in my opinion. And no Ogg Vorbis support.
Hehheh... Speaking of Flames....
<Sigh>
IMO: Why iPods don't suck: huge hard drive (for audio OR just random storage), nice menu interfaces, plenty of audio support (AAC, Protected AAC (from iTunes Music Store), MP3, MP3 VBR, Audible, Apple Lossless, WAV, AIFF), IEEE 1394 (FireWire), and my battery has lasted a year so far and I've only lost 6.25% of the battery life (which in a rechargable battery is pretty damn good). Battery playback time (with a minimal amount of time with the backlight on) is about 12hr, again not too bad for a device with a hard drive playing audio. You can put Linux on it so you can record without a mic and you can develop your own stuff for the iPod. Currently there is a OGG Player that is running at about 80% real-time, so it's not quite done yet, but it's getting there. I just think the iPod is a great tool/toy. I really like the design, and the huge drive. 20G in an item the size of a deck of cards is awfully cool, especially since you dont have to open up your computer and plug into a ribbon cable, or a SATA fiber cable. I backed up most of my music, all of my install files, all my pictures, and all of my programming stuff (not the IDEs but the code for the programs...) with it when I switched computers.

As to Apple products being sucky... I wouldnt say that. Seeing as how the Mac OSX runs using a BSD core and is therefore pretty much a linux-based piece of software its very secure and very stable. Could they put more time into functionality as opposed to form? Yes. But who couldn't? Or vice-versa. Linux distros could spend a bit more time making their software usable by John Doe as opposed to making them mostly specifically secure platforms.

Well, that was fun! Let the flaming ensue!! :)

[neilthecellist]

Why iPods suck for me: No Ogg Vorbis support!!!!! DAMN! I LOVE ogg vorbis! :)

[Rhino213]

iPods don't suck! I've got one and I love it. I've had mine nearly 18 months now and I use every day at work. I'm pretty sure they do support Ogg Vorbis too. STOP IPOD BASHING!!!

As for the whole mp3 vs Ogg Vorbis. Its a matter of opinion. I've been using mp3 for years and find the quality is fine. I encode evertything to 128k. It gives great sound quality and keeps the file size quite low too. Unless you have spent thousands on good speakers or are playing your music over a really good professional quality sound rig there's no point encoding any higher, your just wasting space!

[LtData]

Actually.... some people, such as neil and myself, can tell when mp3 is encoding to 128kbps or lower. And I'm using headphones and a USB soundcard. I can also tell the difference between WMA at 96kbps and 128kbps. Again, encoding levels are a matter of opinion, as each person has different hearing abilities.

And yes, we DO need to stop the iPod bashing. Some people love them and swear by them. Some people are indifferent towards them. Some people hate them and will never even TOUCH one. Again, its a matter of personal taste.
And, as of right now, iPods do not officially support Ogg Vobis. There may be some people that are making it to where they DO, but, for all practical intents and purposes, the iPod doesn't support Ogg Vorbis.

As for encoding, Ogg Vorbis is based off of mp2 encoding. That's why it sounds better at lower bitrates.

[neilthecellist]

Actually.... some people, such as neil and myself, can tell when mp3 is encoding to 128kbps or lower.
Glad someone supports me here.And I'm using headphones and a USB soundcard. And I'm using worse, a 4.99 buck headset/microphone with motherboard integrated sound (and I'm a cellist!) I can also tell the difference between WMA at 96kbps and 128kbps. Same.Again, encoding levels are a matter of opinion, as each person has different hearing abilities. Why not keep everything universal at Ogg Vorbis? That way, no one complains! :)

And yes, we DO need to stop the iPod bashing. Some people love them and swear by them. Some people are indifferent towards them. Some people hate them and will never even TOUCH one. Again, its a matter of personal taste.
And, as of right now, iPods do not officially support Ogg Vobis. There may be some people that are making it to where they DO, but, for all practical intents and purposes, the iPod doesn't support Ogg Vorbis.
But but but but.....(sputters riff-raff) :sad:
As for encoding, Ogg Vorbis is based off of mp2 encoding. That's why it sounds better at lower bitrates.
LtData, where can I learn more about Ogg Vorbis? Remember, I am a technology noob! :)

[LtData]

LtData, where can I learn more about Ogg Vorbis? Remember, I am a technology noob! :)
http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp They answer some questions there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbis Here to.

[neilthecellist]

thanks

[kimmchii]

well, i cant tell the difference between WMA at 64kbps and 128kbps on my $600 hi-fi system, i burned 2 cds to try out and cant tell which is which, they're equally good. but not for mp3, mp3 at 64kbps the quality is hopeless.

therefore i have just converted all my 20K songs to WMA at 64kbps, saved half the hd space.

[Jimbo2005]

What exactly do the sounds sound like when compressed to 64kbps? WMA (instead of 64kbpsmp3).

Do they sound muffled, you mean?

[neilthecellist]

Jimbo2005, what I mean by when I say I can tell the difference between 64 and 128 is that 64 sounds muffled, mono-sound, (not stereo), cymbals don't crash correctly (especially in classical music), violins totally sound like they're playing on mud (in classical music), and lots of stereo-effects are lost. (in all genres of music)

And this applies to ANY audio format.

[Jimbo2005]

Gee. Cymbals don't crash correctly.

I've always wondered. audio cassette is like 22khz right?

Which sounds better 22khz at 128kbps or
44khz at 64kbps?

Regards.

[neilthecellist]

Gee. Cymbals don't crash correctly.

I've always wondered. audio cassette is like 22khz right?

Which sounds better 22khz at 128kbps or
44khz at 64kbps?

Regards.

It's debatable.

[Jimbo2005]

I especially love SRS wow effects. Its ambience capabilities make it sound so live.

It's on Microsoft windows media player.

[ChristinaS]

Gee. Cymbals don't crash correctly.

I've always wondered. audio cassette is like 22khz right?

Which sounds better 22khz at 128kbps or
44khz at 64kbps?

Regards.
I was just experimenting with some combinations and I found that at very low bitrate sa lower frequency sounds better, at least for wma formats.

So 20-32 kbps CBR sounds better, brighter, at 22KHz than at 44Khz. Above 32kbps 44Khz is better.

(Don't forget in wma, those low bitrates result in about twice as good an audio file than mp3 at the same bitrates. So 32kbps wma is about as good as mp3 at 64kbps - buit only half the file size).

[Jimbo2005]

I know some dude who bought 300 dollar head phones. He wanted to buy 500 dollar ones too.

What's the difference between 'em and those 2 dollar, 10 dollar versions?

Regards.

[LtData]

The output range comes to mind, as well as the clarity of the headphones. Another thing is the strength and size of the drivers. The impedance, or how loud they can get, is another factor.
Also, the design. Most expensive headphones enclose the ear in foam to close out outside sounds. Also, many expensive headphones include noise-canceling technology.

[Jimbo2005]

Wow. I wonder how WMA could produce twice the quality as mp3.

i guess it's from shortcuts like if a bass drum and another instrument is played at the same time, the bassdrum gets more hard drive space whereas the other instrument gets much smaller drive space.

Can dbpoweramp convert into wma format?

[ChristinaS]

Wow. I wonder how WMA could produce twice the quality as mp3.

i guess it's from shortcuts like if a bass drum and another instrument is played at the same time, the bassdrum gets more hard drive space whereas the other instrument gets much smaller drive space.

Can dbpoweramp convert into wma format?
Of course dBpowerAMP can convert to wma. Download and install the codecs from Codec Central for Windows Media (wma). Just make sure you follow all isntructions as the downloads and installations are different depending on the OS you have.

[ChristinaS]

I know some dude who bought 300 dollar head phones. He wanted to buy 500 dollar ones too.

What's the difference between 'em and those 2 dollar, 10 dollar versions?

Regards.
Well, the price of course for one :D

Actually I feel that going over $100 is way overboard. From $50 to $100 you can find perfectly good headphones with all those nice features - cancelling other sounds, tight foam padding that allows no leakage to the outside (important in a recording studio) and maybe controls to shift the balance or for the volume.

At lower prices they are still good enough for every day use. But not as low as $10 for sure, unless you just want them for the pocket mp3 player or to leave around the office.

[neilthecellist]

I have 550 buck headphones that my brother didn't want, so I use it now. I think my headphones create an appropriate "soundstage" so that orchestral pieces sound correctly.

It was also these headphones that allowed me to distinguish between the various mp3 formats out there. (These headphones don't plug into my computer, they're wireless and they're connected to my L70 DVD-Receiver)

[ChristinaS]

I have 550 buck headphones that my brother didn't want, so I use it now. I think my headphones create an appropriate "soundstage" so that orchestral pieces sound correctly.

It was also these headphones that allowed me to distinguish between the various mp3 formats out there. (These headphones don't plug into my computer, they're wireless and they're connected to my L70 DVD-Receiver)
Geez, my entire computer costs barely more than that :rolleyes:
As for my hi-fi system.... let's not even talk about it :p

We did get a Yamaha home theater set just last week only because my daughter won it in a draw. It seems to cost somewhere around $600-$800 depending where you look - I'd have NEVER bought it at that price :D Pretty useless gadget anyway :p .

[neilthecellist]

I got my computer at a rip off price from Dell. (Damnit Dell, I hate your prices!) My dad was foolish enough to purchase a lousy computer from them at a gamer computer price.

The original computer specs were:
1.8 ghz Pentium 4 processor
1 stick of 256 MB RAM at 266mhz
32 MB 4X AGP ATI Rage 128 Ultra
Samsung Black 48X CD-ROM
Cheap keyboard/cheap mouse/both black
17 " CRT monitor that can only go up to 72hz for refresh rate
1 year warranty, which was nothing, since their telephone lines were always busy

All this load of junk for 900 dollars. Purchased in year 2001.


Oh and Christina, does your family use the Yamaha home theater?

[ChristinaS]

I got my computer at a rip off price from Dell. (Damnit Dell, I hate your prices!) My dad was foolish enough to purchase a lousy computer from them at a gamer computer price.

The original computer specs were:
1.8 ghz Pentium 4 processor
1 stick of 256 MB RAM at 266mhz
32 MB 4X AGP ATI Rage 128 Ultra
Samsung Black 48X CD-ROM
Cheap keyboard/cheap mouse/both black
17 " CRT monitor that can only go up to 72hz for refresh rate
1 year warranty, which was nothing, since their telephone lines were always busy

All this load of junk for 900 dollars. Purchased in year 2001.


Oh and Christina, does your family use the Yamaha home theater?

Dell's for regular consumers are a rip-off. Period. What you got you can have for maybe $300, but better overall.

Well, our home theater is installed on the big tv in the den, so you can say it's being used by whomever watches any DVD there. It's uselss for cable tv and for vcr's though, unless you want to route everythign through the dvd player - and then mess up connectors and all and never be able to record anything else again.

You can listen to cd's too, but usually there's somebody watching tv there so it tends to clash.

I've only taken a peek at it all and said "Ah, ok. Now turn the rumble off". I can't stand sound coming at me from all over the place LOL! It confuses me. It's supposed to come from that box in front of me not from behind or from the floor, so I tend to be antsy :D

[neilthecellist]

Lol. Sound behind you? How about headphones? When you wear headphones and play a game, say, Halo: Combat Evolved, you hear bullets flying from behind you, narrowly missing you. As the bullet travels from the direction of your back to the direction of your front, you hear the sound of the bullet traveling too. And, in the background, you hear the quiet moaning of the snow blizzard. All of these sounds you hear in the headphones are sounds you would exactly the same in your home theater.

[ChristinaS]

Lol. Sound behind you? How about headphones? When you wear headphones and play a game, say, Halo: Combat Evolved, you hear bullets flying from behind you, narrowly missing you. As the bullet travels from the direction of your back to the direction of your front, you hear the sound of the bullet traveling too. And, in the background, you hear the quiet moaning of the snow blizzard. All of these sounds you hear in the headphones are sounds you would exactly the same in your home theater.
Neil, do you honestly think I'd play any games, especially such as those?
At most I play Solitaire once in a blue moon :D

[neilthecellist]

Sorry, I forgot. :)

[Jimbo2005]

Always wodnered, what's this lossless wma encoding that microsoft always claim?

Why can't it make any losses despite lower bit rates?

Why is it better than mp3?

regards.

[LtData]

Answered here:
http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?t=7697
Please don't double post.

[Jimbo2005]

Did the wma dudes add their SRS wow effects into the wma files?

What did they do to make it sound so good, even when the file sizes are 12 times smaller than the CD versions.

What's the difference between wma LOSSLESS and just plain wma 9.1?

Regards.

Answered here:
http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?t=7697
Please don't double post.

[LtData]

Your question is not pertinent to this topic. Please ask your question regarding your topic in your other thread.