Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Closing this thread

In the meantime I realized I had two instances of the dBpoweramp program installed under two different users on the same Mac OSX laptop. One being the Trial Version (user 1) and the other the purchased R16.2 version (user 2). So I deinstalled all dBpoweramp related files manually for both installations, deleted User 1 account (where the Trial Version had been installed) to be fully sure I did not overlook any file under library Folder, and then finally reinstalled dBpoweramp R16.2 OSX. These two installations may have caused some of the problems I had. Could not track it further down to be definitively sure.
dBpoweramp now seems working again like it was at the initial trial Installation.

Perhaps this may be helpful to some.

Additional findings I will promote to dedicated thread.

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Mp3tag packaged and running under Wine. I think it's latest version v2.87a from their Website, but I can check when home

Verified same also with Metadatics which is a tag editor program designed for OS X

For mp3tag it's v2.86 packaged with Wine so it runs in OS X.

For Metadatics it's v1.5.7

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Mp3tag packaged and running under Wine. I think it's latest version v2.87a from their Website, but I can check when home

Verified same also with Metadatics which is a tag editor program designed for OS X

[mville]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Issue testing: My goal was to see what CD Ripper writes into the tag if 2 values are entered before ripping with CD Ripper...

The result: Only for one(!), the COMPOSER, 2 fields with one value each were written by CD Ripper into the tag (which should happen in all multivalue capable Vorbis Comment Fields). Verified with mp3tag.

Please can you confirm on which platform you are verifying with MP3Tag, as the software is windows only?

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Spoon, could you please have a look and support how to resolve this Multi Value Problem with CD Ripper 16.2 Ref for OS X? Issue suspected.

Issue testing: My goal was to see what CD Ripper writes into the tag if 2 values are entered before ripping with CD Ripper. This list below formed in the course of this thread:

ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
GENRE
SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
STYLE
LYRICIST
ORIGINAL ARTIST
WRITER

GROUPING
LANGUAGE
LOCATION
MOOD
PERFORMER, PERFORMERSORT

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2077[/ATTACH]

The result: Only for one(!), the COMPOSER, 2 fields with one value each were written by CD Ripper into the tag (which should happen in all multivalue capable Vorbis Comment Fields). Verified with mp3tag.

Therefore my asks to you

1) Can you confirm that the latest OS X version of CD Ripper shall support the same multivalue handling for FLAC as the latest Windows version? (i.e. multiple values separated by ‘; ‘ delimiter are written by CD Ripper during the ripping process as separate comment fields, containing a single value each)

2) Can you confirm which on the above list are multivalue capable in OS X 16.2 Reference?

3) Can you confirm if it’s a bug in CD Ripper for OS X, or if a settings configuration change can solve it ?

Many thanks!

Pantin

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Spoon, could you please have a look and support how to resolve this Multi Value problem with CD Ripper 16.2 Ref for OS X? Issue suspected.

Testing: In CD Ripper I filled all the tag fields in the list below with 2 values separated by '; ' delimiter to see if it's written into 2 fields with a single value each. List was formed during this thread.

ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
GENRE
SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
STYLE
LYRICIST
ORIGINAL ARTIST
WRITER

GROUPING
LANGUAGE
LOCATION
MOOD
PERFORMER, PERFORMERSORT

Result: only for one(!) the COMPOSER field, DBPA wrote 2 fields with one value each. Checked with mp3tag

https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2077&d=1523391964

Therefore my ask to you

1) Can you confirm that latest OS X version of CD Ripper shall support the same multivalue handling for FLAC as the latest Windows version? (i.e. multiple values separated by ‘; ‘ delimiter are written by CD Ripper during the ripping process as separate fields, containing a single value each)

2) Can you confirm which on the above list are multivalue capable in OS X 16.2 Reference?

3) Can you confirm if it’s a bug in CD Ripper for OS X, or if a settings configuration change can solve it?


Many thanks!

Pantin

[mville]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

pls find my thoughts to post 7...

Yes, your thoughts and your understandings are similar to mine.

Sadly, developers have not adhered to standards, so we have to work with what we have.

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

pls find my thoughts to post 7

It is my understanding that in theory, where applicable, any vorbis tag can be multi-value, ..

same

.. but over the years many server/player software(s) have not not followed this standard (for reasons unknown). So, some tags are treated as multi-value and some are not.

Seems not a standard as known from other areas (not a 'de-jure' standard)

I guess dBpoweramp has identified this and has adapted to this situation

same. Seems that many software companies active in this field have created several de-facto standardized Solutions, which in regards to tag handling overlap in great parts but are not 100% same. Which makes transparent information important because Control Points, Renderers and Servers used in the chain are unlikely to come from the same development. Also if there's no unifying momentum (Many Record Labels, players .. huh), the software companies were forced to go ahead like this in order to deliver their product. So, no blame. Just happened that way.

i.e. it is pointless for dBpoweramp to write a multi-value MOOD tag to file, if no other software is able to parse the tag correctly.

I see it like this. Information in a tag is used/needed for

- finding music in a library regardless of it's size. And how searching is wanted depends on individual user behaviour and should not be constricted (mainly Server, Control Point)
- sorting it when presented (Server, Control Point)
- displaying it. many use cases. Either in menu or during a track play-back. Agree, it's is still limited (Control Point, Renderer)
- creating a file/path structure for your stored ripped music which makes accessing it from the hard drive simple and quick. Be it for batch processing, backup, copying or whatever post-ripping processing. Dpba's File Naming function is really great help for that.

Multiple values of a FLAC comment field to me are primarily important for indexing my music in order to 'Finding it in your library'. Then I can filter according to all the indexed values and narrow down my selection until I will have found the Music I wanted.

I use it, for example when searching music typical for a Region

LOCATION=Europe
LOCATION=Portugal
LOCATION=Lisboa

is my taggig target. It's also faster to tag. I do not like to create 3 custom fields, like CONTINENT, COUNTRY, CITY, etc- which of course would be an alternative approach.

Similar for MOOD, but at the moment I am just exploring the web and want to see if I can find a scheme which will not end-up in an endless growing list of mood-values. I am prepared to ditch it if not successful

If Control Points and Renderers grow their display capabilities over the years to come, it's fine too.

[mville]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Only for one(!), the COMPOSER, DBPA wrote 2 fields with one value each into the tag (which should happen in ALL multivalve capable Vorbis Comment Fields). For ALL others DBPA seem to have treated it as one string value. Verified it with mp3tag.

FYI, I am using dBpoweramp R16.4 for windows. All the following are written as multi-value tags:

ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
GENRE
SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
STYLE

and in MP3Tag (windows v.2.87a), I get multi-value tags showing in the extended tags window.

So, could it be bug with the OS X version of DBPA (got Rel 16.2)?

Possibly.

... and I don't think the following are treated as multi-value tags, for reasons I gave earlier in post no. 7:

GROUPING
LANGUAGE
LOCATION
MOOD
PERFORMER, PERFORMERSORT

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

mville, many thx for your list.

I could not respond earlier because the professional part of life had occupied me, but I'll try to keep up. (Likewise, I do not expect instantaneous replies to my posts from forum members either)

So, I've used your list and conducted a multivalue test rip. My goal was to see what CD Ripper writes into the tag if 2 values are entered via the CD Ripper tag editor. Comment by comment, namely:

ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
GENRE
SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
STYLE
LYRICIST
ORIGINAL ARTIST
WRITER

GROUPING
LANGUAGE
LOCATION
MOOD
PERFORMER, PERFORMERSORT (note: the latter is definitively custom, not sure if DBPA can deal with it)

Except of PERFORMERSORT all are vorbis comment fields which are (have been) at least discussed, some of it have been part of the 'original' minimal proposed fields names list. The two test values assigned to each field were always separated by DBPA's multivalve delimiter '; ' .

The Result is frustrating:

Only for one(!), the COMPOSER, DBPA wrote 2 fields with one value each into the tag (which should happen in ALL multivalve capable Vorbis Comment Fields). For ALL others DBPA seem to have treated it as one string value. Verified it with mp3tag. You can see it in the attached screenshot.



What now? I think I used the correct delimiter '; ' to separate the values, but could there be a configuration setting which I have overlooked?? On the other hand, it (at least) works for COMPOSER.

So, could it be bug with the OS X version of DBPA (got Rel 16.2)?
Guess most here in the forum use the Windows version.
Which version do you use and your above list was experienced with?

All suggestions welcome

Pantin

[mville]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

It is my understanding that in theory, where applicable, any vorbis tag can be multi-value, but over the years many server/player software(s) have not not followed this standard (for reasons unknown). So, some tags are treated as multi-value and some are not.

I guess dBpoweramp has identified this and has adapted to this situation i.e. it is pointless for dBpoweramp to write a multi-value MOOD tag to file, if no other software is able to parse the tag correctly.

Currently dBpoweramp supports the following vorbis/flac multi-value tags:
ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
GENRE
SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
STYLE

and (but I have not used, so cannot confirm)

LYRICIST (Original lyricist(s)/text writer(s))

ORIGINAL ARTIST (Original artist(s)/performer(s))
WRITER (Lyricist/Text writer)

I am happy to be corrected here, if my understanding is not correct or I have not included important information.

[GaryG45]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Pantin,
In the past I used multiple values for the STYLE tag for some of my FLAC music. I used Mp3tag to add the multiple values. It was done some time after ripping, when I considered adding STYLE to all of my music.

[garym]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

which ones are defined by standard to support multi values? would you have a link you could share please. or could you quote from the standard document, if you cannot do otherwise - thx

so far I couldn't find such a de jure information from searching the web.

Can't recall where I saw the information. I know I saw this somewhere. I vaguely recall @mville posting some info on this on a thread on this forum. rather than grouping field you might try STYLE for subgenre info. Not sure whether STYLE accepts multivalue, but you could try that too.

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

+missing information in regards to:
"
I.'Multiple value separator ; does not work for some fields'

Found this in GROUPING, LOCATION, LANGUAGE or MOOD.
"

and also same for STYLE.

also GROUPING may be known to some as CONTENTGROUP. I am using this to add sub-genre information.

[Pantin]

Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

Quick answer to one of your issues. Only a few tag fields accept multi values. This is not a dbpa limitation. It is the tag standard.

which ones are defined by standard to support multi values? would you have a link you could share please. or could you quote from the standard document, if you cannot do otherwise - thx

so far I couldn't find such a de jure information from searching the web.