Cambridge Audio / StreamMagic only displaying first artist

[vilsen]

The result from our testing of the 851N:

FORMAT    STREAM    AA present    AA absent

FLAC/MP3  AS IS     single A *    single A *
           WAV       multi AA      multi A

AIFF      AS IS      multi AA      multi A
           WAV       multi AA      multi A


* not from Asset, pulled from source file

ID3v2.3 or ID3v2.4 didn't matter for MP3/AIFF

Multiple ARTISTs present in all files

AA present = multiple ALBUM ARTISTs tagged

[simbun]

Sorry, that sentence was a lapsus/error on my part. I cut down a longer rambling text about the 851N not obeying/conforming to UPnP, and mixed it up when I pasted it, didn't notice that.

No problem. I thought you'd moved the goal posts on me.

No, for flac & mp3 it's the same, and aiff differs.

And from your last test we know it's because it can't get tags from the AIFF format; so a simple fix is to convert everything to AIFF ;-)

My buddy who owns the 851N says he's fed up with testing for now, so testing BubbleUPnP Server has to wait. Hoping for the [SimpleArtist] update, but he would need transcoding as well, which he thinks he shouldn't have to do just for correcting one tag on his flagship model... Cambridge, are you reading...? Probably not.

He's correct in thinking that he shouldn't need to do anything, but it doesn't look like that's an option.
I'm as confident as I can be that the SimpleArtist update will work for him, and transcoding whilst not ideal won't affect the audio quality.

thanks for your support and ideas.

Troubleshooting is half the fun :-)

[vilsen]

He's correct in thinking that he shouldn't need to do anything, but it doesn't look like that's an option.

What's frustrating is that just like the OP, my buddy has requested this very basic bugfix from Cambridge. Judging by their response, they seem genuinely uninterested.

And from your last test we know it's because it can't get tags from the AIFF format; so a simple fix is to convert everything to AIFF ;-)

Haha, it's a tempting move but I see your wink - it's impractical of course and would disguise lossy mp3 in a lossless format.

Transcoding has a similar disadvantage, since the original file format is disguised - flac & mp3 are both displayed as pcm.

But that got me thinking about this:

When transcoding no metadata is sent in file

Could "no metadata is sent in file" also be achieved for "as is", like in a "no tag" option?

I.e. selecting "no tag" (or similar name) would not touch the audio, only strip the file from tags.

Thus hindering dumb control points from pulling tags off the audio files.


Or as a General setting e.g. "Don't send metadata in files"

Or as a Control Point Specific setting e.g. [NoFileMetadata]

[simbun]

Transcoding has a similar disadvantage, since the original file format is disguised - flac & mp3 are both displayed as pcm.

That makes sense, I didn't understand why you'd want to avoid transcoding.

But that got me thinking about this:

Could "no metadata is sent in file" also be achieved for "as is", like in a "no tag" option?

I.e. selecting "no tag" (or similar name) would not touch the audio, only strip the file from tags.

Thus hindering dumb control points from pulling tags off the audio files.


Or as a General setting e.g. "Don't send metadata in files"

Most servers only transcode, but AssetUPnP does offer "as MP3" (which essentially does what you're asking for) so I guess it's not out of the question - although I would have thought it was :-)

Or as a Control Point Specific setting e.g. [NoFileMetadata]

The controller in this instance is the StreamMagic app that could be communicating with a number of different renderers, some of which may no need this processing - although if it's purely stripping metadata (a decode then encode without metadata) then it's not likely to be a problem.

[vilsen]

By stripping the files from tags I don't mean by decoding / encoding, I mean just removing the tags, keeping the original audio untouched.

I think it would be better than transcoding when you don't really need/want transcoding, only stripping of tags.

I'd prefer to have untouched audio sent to the renderer if possible. Playing the original files gives you a hint of the source when you have various file types and it's great to see whether you play lossy or lossless.

[mville]

What's frustrating is that just like the OP, my buddy has requested this very basic bugfix from Cambridge. Judging by their response, they seem genuinely uninterested

Hmmm, yes, it's a shame, but don't hold your breath here.

I was a big fan of the UPnP/DLNA protocol (10 years ago), and although Asset UPnP works very well, getting hi-fi hardware manufacturers to implement firmware that works reasonably OR as hoped, in my experience does not happen.

Yes, you'll be able to stream audio ok, but handling ALL the possible metadata/artwork formats well, is another matter.

You either accept the manufacturers limitations OR you look for another solution... as I did.

[simbun]

By stripping the files from tags I don't mean by decoding / encoding, I mean just removing the tags, keeping the original audio untouched.

I think it would be better than transcoding when you don't really need/want transcoding, only stripping of tags.

I'd prefer to have untouched audio sent to the renderer if possible. Playing the original files gives you a hint of the source when you have various file types and it's great to see whether you play lossy or lossless.

Sorry, best to ignore my last reply it was an absolute mess, missing characters and even words!

Yes I do understand that you'd want to leave the audio untouched, but the one example we have of such processing in the current product is with MP3, using "as MP3", where it does decode and encode.

It's obviously possible, although whether it's worth the investment for Illustrate I don't know.

[simbun]

I was a big fan of the UPnP/DLNA protocol (10 years ago), and although Asset UPnP works very well, getting hi-fi hardware manufacturers to implement firmware that works reasonably OR as hoped, in my experience does not happen.

Yes, you'll be able to stream audio ok, but handling ALL the possible metadata/artwork formats well, is another matter.

You either accept the manufacturers limitations OR you look for another solution... as I did.

Why accept the manufacturers limitations? With UPnP I can use the server and control point I want to use, all the renderer has to do is play the audio - with the exception of renderers with built in displays ;-)

I've tried other systems e.g. BluOS, but the tag support is abysmal. When I buy a product, if it doesn't work with my server and control point (which it invariably does) then it goes back.

[vilsen]

You either accept the manufacturers limitations OR you look for another solution... as I did.

... OR you humbly request new server features. I'm not expecting Asset to solve every problem with misbehaving control points and renderers, but Asset is a great server and already does some tricks in that respect. So I ask and hope for the best. If the Illustrate team thinks it's worth the effort, I'll be happy, if not I understand.

The alternatives don't look better to me. I like the power and customization a music server offers. I like having a streamer on top of my amplifier, and often use it without the app, only the remote control. Then the display on the unit is the only place where I can see track info - so it's nice when it's accurate. Other times I use the app, browsing the album covers. Nice to have choices, depending on your mood.

[vilsen]

Sorry, best to ignore my last reply it was an absolute mess, missing characters and even words!

No problem, I've seen much much worse, by myself too

Yes I do understand that you'd want to leave the audio untouched, but the one example we have of such processing in the current product is with MP3, using "as MP3", where it does decode and encode.

It's obviously possible, although whether it's worth the investment for Illustrate I don't know.

That one example does not leave the audio untouched, as re-encoding mp3 is a lossy process, even with the highest bitrate. I'd prefer if the tags could be removed without re-encoding the audio.

So I'm not sure what you mean, maybe I'm not reading you right. When you say "It's obviously possible", are you referring to "decode and encode"? Cause that's not what I'm after.

[simbun]

So I'm not sure what you mean, maybe I'm not reading you right. When you say "It's obviously possible", are you referring to "decode and encode"? Cause that's not what I'm after.

Maybe it was a bold statement given that I don't know their toolset or anything that's going on behind the scenes to make all this work, but I meant that it's almost certainly possible for them (given enough time and effort) to just strip the metadata from the stream leaving the audio intact.

I'm no ffmpeg expert, but the following seems to do the trick:

ffmpeg.exe -hide_banner -i "01.01.mp3" -c copy -map_metadata: -1 "example.mp3"

Having said that I have no idea if they even use ffmpeg, or if ffmpeg can handle all the formats that Asset supports.

[mville]

... OR you humbly request new server features. I'm not expecting Asset to solve every problem with misbehaving control points and renderers, but Asset is a great server and already does some tricks in that respect. So I ask and hope for the best. If the Illustrate team thinks it's worth the effort, I'll be happy, if not I understand.

I completely agree. Illustrate's implementation, attention to detail and attempts to circumvent issues is to be applauded.

However, some hi-fi manufacturers implementation of the protocols involved is poor, and, when I have pointed out certain bugs/issues, their attitude and response has also been poor to say the least, and that is a shame.

[Spymaster]

I've raised the multiple artist issue with Cambridge and, following a fairly disappointing "that's how it is" reply, I've arranged for it to be escalated and it's now with the developers for consideration. I spoke with a second support person and they confirmed it's on the list for discussion. So there is hope. Displaying all the artists assigned to a track is a fairly basic display requirement I'd have thought.

[simbun]

Now if you can get fixes for Yamaha, Oppo and WiiM too then we'll be fine

[vilsen]

And for the Marantz & Rotel models that I have encountered. This display problem is very common sadly.