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Thread: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

  1. #1

    Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    This has happened several times already with discs that looked perfect and free of scratches or smudges. I have it set to Ultra-Secure ripping and followed all the recommendations when setting it up. Has ripped about a hundred discs successfully so far including a few very old ones with discoloration and scratches. But these few that could absolutely not be ripped I ended up replacing with new copies. Some of these CDs are rare and this is getting expensive. I have a perfectly clean hybrid SACD (have ripped all the other SACD pressings in this series of Can reissues and many other hybrid SACD discs) and I examined it closely under bright light, cleaned it repeatedly with soft cloth rubbing center to outside edge. There is absolutely no visible defect in this disc and any collector would class it as MINT, so why do I keep getting ripping errors on every track? What can I do? Very discouraged about this...

  2. #2
    dBpoweramp Guru
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    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Non-visible, manufacturing errors can exist with CDs. Often, these errors are not audible on playback, but are errors nonetheless.

  3. #3

    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Apparently you are right. Any idea of a good workaround when this happens, other than disabling ultra-secure ripping or changing the settings? What about making a CDR copy of the error-prone disc and then ripping that, I wonder...

  4. #4
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    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Always useful to try another optical drive as well. Problem cds for me often rip perfectly on a different drive. These can be cheap drives, connected via usb.

  5. #5
    dBpoweramp Enthusiast
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    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    I second the idea of trying multiple drives.

    Also, just because it looks clean, doesn't mean it really is. I have had good luck cleaning disks with soap and water, and having much better results after the cleaning. Those disks usually looked pristine, but there was something that the soap and water removed which was causing problems.

    Mike

  6. #6

    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Thanks for your suggestions. Buying another drive seems like a hassle but I guess it might be cheaper than replacing every CD I have that won't rip. The drive I have now has C2 and FUA support and I am set for ultra secure ripping. It came inside my brand new computer. Any suggestions on what brand or model of external optical drive I should buy? An Amazon link would be appreciated. Thanks again.

  7. #7
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    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Did you try to turn C2 off?


    Dat Ei

  8. #8

    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    no, but I will try that next time...

  9. #9

    Join Date
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    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Buy a Pioneer BDR-S09XLT drive. It reads factory-faulty discs better than average.
    But don't stress this drive with more than 2 rips in a row, these drives are very weak and prone to damage permanently.
    You will find out when it's damaged because of sudden reading errors in every disc, perfect or not.

  10. #10

    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    The workaround I've come up with is to copy the error-prone CD using CDBurnerXP onto a blank CD-R and then rip the copy in CD ripper. This worked for me and I got error-free secure rips with just one ultra-secure pass and no bad frames. I didn't have to change any of my ultra-secure settings (my drive supports both FUA and C2 features so I am able to leave both those boxes checked). It feels like cheating to rip a copy of the error-prone CD instead of ripping the factory-pressed original, but it works for me. In the past I have replaced those CDs that gave me ripping errors but when I got errors with the mint condition discs from a rare 1987 CD box set that I paid $600 for I am not about to go buy another copy with the hopes that a different copy will rip okay, not do I really care to go buy an external optical drive and pay the money and go to the trouble of setting it up for accurate rips without knowing that it will give me an error-free rip. I figure a secure rip from a duplicated CD-R that is a direct lossless and uncompressed 16-bit 44.1 khz digital copy is good enough for me.

  11. #11
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    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    CDBurnerXP is not a secure reader, so I am sorry to say, it encoded the errors on the CD-R just like there was no errors. The end result is the same, the rip will have errors, just not reported as c2 because that was removed.

  12. #12
    dBpoweramp Guru
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    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Quote Originally Posted by ferrarabrainpan View Post
    The workaround I've come up with is to copy the error-prone CD using CDBurnerXP onto a blank CD-R and then rip the copy in CD ripper. This worked for me and I got error-free secure rips with just one ultra-secure pass and no bad frames.
    Sadly, this is not a workaround. If you copy a disc with errors, then the copy will have the same errors and possibly more as Spoon pointed out, CDBurnerXP is not a secure reader.

  13. #13

    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Thank you for your replies, I was afraid of that. No use in trying to fool myself into believing I have got an error-free rip by ripping a copy. But I need some clarification here on a number of issues. If my CD-R copy burned on XP has the same errors as the original, why are the errors not picked up when I go to rip the copy on the same drive, same secure settings? And if a disc has errors that are reported on one drive in CD Ripper with maximum secure settings, and the same disc rips error-free in a different drive, what does that mean? Did the second drive correct the errors in the rip, or did it simply ignore the errors because it failed to detect them? If a CD (or bit-perfect copy of the same CD) has errors then those errors are going to be replicated in any bit-perfect rip, am I right?

    It seems to me the only real solution is to replace the disc with one that does not have errors. I have a collection of over 1000 CDs (maybe 2000) and I am less than 10% into getting them all ripped to lossless files and have run into about five discs so far that would not rip without errors on one or more tracks. Two of those were CDs that were pressed after the year 2000 and I was able to replace them with different copies for $10 to $25 each and the replacement copies ripped error-free. Two of the others were rare releases that cost me over $50 each to replace and the replacement copies worked. Now that I've got one or more error-prone discs in a 5-CD box that is very scarce and expensive on the collectors market, having paid $600 for a copy with mint-condition media rating, I can't really afford to buy another copy in hopes that it will rip properly. And I can't keep replacing every CD that gives me ripping errors in CD Ripper because my cash reserves have run out and I have to be more sensibly restrained in my entertainment expenditures.

    So I am willing to try (meaning buy) a second drive to try out that solution which experienced users have suggested. But I'm not sure if the Pioneer is a good choice because 1) it is an internal drive and I would rather have an external drive to augment the internal drive I already have in my Dell PC desktop, and 2) it doesn't seem like a sound investment to spend $125 on a Pioneer drive that is "very weak and prone to damage permanently". So I will shop around for a good external drive (though I've read reports of users who had good luck with cheap used drives and so maybe it's not a question of getting the most expensive new drive anyway). But it comes back to the question of how does one drive can give an error-free rip of the same CD that shows errors on a different drive unless it is simply a case of the drive failing to detect the errors meaning the errors aren't reported in CD Ripper secure ripping?

    When I spent several hours trying to set up CD ripper in the best way possible (partly in selecting metadata ID tags and partly in creating filename profiles and partly in trying to understand and set up secure ripping), I selected ultra-secure ripping and tested my drive and found that it supports both C2 error detection and clearing cache with FUA, so I checked those boxes and set up all the numbers as directed at https://www.dbpoweramp.com/cd-ripper-setup-guide.htm but I ought to understand what is the real advantage of ultra-secure ripping over just plain secure and is it necessary to check those boxes for C2 and FUA? If I uncheck C2 then does that mean that CD ripper has a better chance of ripping without any reported errors because without C2 enabled it just failed to detect them (meaning the errors are there in the rip but merely unreported)? I don't know WTF FUA cache clearing is all about and if that makes any difference.

    Also there is the matter of Accurate rips and of course I set up my drive for AccurateRip at the beginning but I am not sure what that really tells me... I could get a secure rip that could be reported as not accurate (showing that dreadful [COLOR="*FF0000"]red X[/COLOR] next to the filename in CD Ripper), but is that important? I have noticed that when I put some CDs in the drive they are misidentified as a different CD (this happens more frequently with CDs that have just one long track on the disc). Three of those La Monte Young CDs in the five CD box were incorrectly identified in the online disc lookup and the other two were reported as not in the AccurateRip database (so the three that were misidentified as the wrong CD were labeled inaccurate even though I changed all the data fields to the correct info before ripping).

    I am writing a treatise here, but I have to say that the pursuit of perfection (in CD ripping and in all other areas of my life) is an expensive and exhausting, often disappointing and frustrating endeavor. At some point, one has to admit at times that perfection is out of reach. How many solutions am I willing to try here? I can spend money to replace the CD if I can afford to do that, and I will buy a second optical drive once I decide on a good external drive that might best serve my purposes here, but I might have to settle with a few bad rips in those cases where I just can't seem to get a rip without errors.

    I guess my next step is to try ripping these bad discs leaving all my ultra-secure rip settings in place except for unchecking the C2 box and see if that works. And then if it doesn't work, completely disable ultra-secure ripping and make do with regular secure...?

    When I mentioned this matter on a different forum (JRiver Media Center) they just told me to rip the CDs in JRiver because JRiver Media Center ripping is "second to none". I haven't tried that out yet but maybe it's worth a shot. Ay-ay-ay...

  14. #14

    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    OK I wrote a really long reply which the moderator has yet to approve (it included a web page link so I guess that is why it needs moderator approval) so you can read that later...

    Meanwhile, there are a couple things to ask and report:

    One, I did ripping tests on this problem disc which is CD 1 of the five-CD box The Well-Tuned Piano by La Monte Young. First attempt with Ultra-secure ripping enabled and C2 box checked gave ERROR warning and failed to rip the track (I guess it is simply aborted if it cannot rip error-free). Second attempt left Ultra-secure enabled but unchecked C2 box, and it still reported ERROR and did not rip the track, so unchecking C2 had no effect. Third attempt I disabled Ultra-secure ripping entirely while leaving C2 checked (not sure if C2 is only functional when Ultra-secure is enabled, can you tell me?) and the disc ripped with a green check mark SECURE (not the baleful RED X) and so I got a rip of the hour-long track which comprises the disc. Conclusion: Disabling Ultra-secure ripping may be the preferred workaround with error-prone discs (less time-consuming and wasteful than ripping a CD-R copy with Ultra-Secure enabled).

    Two, I searched some other threads for optical drive recommendations and it seems I am better off with an internal drive than a slim external drive, according to those who know from experience (I trust your advice). One recommendation was for the Asus BW-16D1HT which is a bit cheaper than the Pioneer (which I am definitely not buying if it is so fragile and liable to burnout). Then others say that cheap throwaway drives can be a good option but that seems like a crapshoot (not to mention time-consuming in setting up AccurateRip for half a dozen different drives that may or may not work) if I were to buy a few of those dirt cheap on Craigslist. Question: will an internal drive connect easily to my desktop via USB without having to mount it internally using the SATA cables or whatever (I'm a dummy regarding these matters, so please forgive me).

  15. #15

    Re: Ripping errors on perfectly clean discs

    Aha! There is a factor I overlooked before now. Secure Rip Abort - After Ripping a Track For: 10 minutes. I don't know if 10 minutes is the default value and I don't recall typing in 10 minutes. In any case, as applies to this particular disc, that is why I kept getting error aborts with Ultra-secure enabled. It reached the 10-minute mark before the Ultra-secure pass had finished and automatically aborted the rip and marked it as ERROR. This happened because it is one long track (59:58) and because the rip speed for this disc never exceeded x6 (varied from x4 to x6 over the course of the rip process). I have noticed that CDs vary widely in terms of the ripping speed. Some discs (usually older pressings from 80s/90s) will show x4 as the speed thru the whole rip process, other discs can get up to x20 in my drive. And when it is a really long track then the track ripping time can get above ten minutes. I have some CDs in the modern classical/ambient/experimental genre that are comprised of one 79 minute track on one disc. I saw that Spoon recommended setting this number at 20 minutes but I am going to set it at 40 to allow for those uncommon discs that rip slowly and have just one long track on a given disc.

    When I set it to 30 for this CD it ripped Ultra-securely with C2 pointers in just about 20 minutes with no reported errors (though the rip was classed as inaccurate, owing to the fact that AccurateRip read my CD as a completely different CD and thereby called the rip inaccurate). The secure rip abort time was probably not a factor in those other ERROR rip discs I had (which were multiple short tracks) but in this case it proved to be the cause of the ripping errors. Glad I got that sorted.

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