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Thread: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

  1. #1

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    Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Hi there,

    since March I am using dbpoweramp R16.2 Reference for OS X and this forum had been really of help to me to configure DBPA, setting up my preferred configuration and also have inspired me further how to tag music collections. I am quite happy so far with the functions of DBPA.
    Many thanks to DBPA team, Spoon, PeterP and to the forum members.

    So my post is about this ‘quite’ because the following issues give me headaches when processing each and every single CD (so far non-classical CDs to .flac). I wish these could be fixed or at least worked-around. Please have a look:

    I.‘Multiple value separator ; does not work for some fields’

    Description:
    Found this in GROUPING, LOCATION, LANGUAGE or MOOD.
    (Example) Entering in the tag editing window frame (lower middle of DBPA GUI) ‘Hubba; Bubba’ to either of the fields above causes CD Ripper to create only a single field with the value ‘Hubba; Bubba’ in the ripped files but should create two entries, like:

    If
    GROUPING=Hubba; Bubba
    then
    GROUPING=Hubba
    GROUPING=Bubba

    I was surprised because it works for GENRE and others, ARTIST, of course. Expected a consistent handling of the ‘; ‘ separator across the Vorbis Comment Fields.

    User Impact:
    - Prevents from ripping CDs using DBPA only (And CD Ripper clearly got the functions/potential to deliver this!), because it's always needed to add an additional processing step; which is re-loading the ripped tracks into a tag editor afterwards to edit and store multiple values appropriately.
    - Significant time increase spent for ripping, at least

    II.Field Mapping
    II.1 ‘ENSEMBLE field disappears after ripping’

    Description:
    Happens when
    ENSEMBLE=band name
    and also
    ALBUMARTIST=band name
    are set. In short: To both fields the same value assigned.
    And it just happens? in the background, or have I overlooked sth perhaps?

    User Impact:
    - Cannot browse a separate index of bands (in non-classical) and also in future will not be able to index/filter for classical music ensembles from duetts over chamber to orchestras (when tagging classical music).
    - Prevents from ripping CDs using DBPA only, because it's always needed to afterwards load the ripped tracks into a tag editor to recover ENSEMBLE.
    - Time consuming and additional error source

    II.2 ‘COMMENT mapped to DESCRIPTION’
    Description:
    Solved. could successfully change this to leave it unmapped as COMMENT.
    Found a setting under DBPA configure>Codecs>ID Tagging.

    User Benefit:
    Transparent and user controllable as wanted. Nice. (Unfortunately I could not find a similar setting for ENSEMBLE, is it hidden elsewhere?)

    III.‘No Predictive Typing when filling Tag Comment fields’
    Believe I read about it in some Release notes but I got to admit I am not sure. Either way, I'd appreciate to have such support.

    User Benefit:
    - Reduces likelihood of creating unwanted ‘ghost’ indexes during tagging. E.g. when GENRE intent is typing ‘Classical’ but it happens to end up in ‘Classicall’ as a typo.
    - Saves time because no (less often) retagging step needed.

    thanks for reading

    Any thoughts / suggestions?

    Pantin

  2. #2
    dBpoweramp Guru
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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Quick answer to one of your issues. Only a few tag fields accept multi values. This is not a dbpa limitation. It is the tag standard.
    Last edited by garym; 04-06-2018 at 08:07 PM.

  3. #3

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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Quote Originally Posted by garym View Post
    Quick answer to one of your issues. Only a few tag fields accept multi values. This is not a dbpa limitation. It is the tag standard.

    which ones are defined by standard to support multi values? would you have a link you could share please. or could you quote from the standard document, if you cannot do otherwise - thx

    so far I couldn't find such a de jure information from searching the web.

  4. #4

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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    +missing information in regards to:
    "
    I.'Multiple value separator ; does not work for some fields'

    Found this in GROUPING, LOCATION, LANGUAGE or MOOD.
    "

    and also same for STYLE.

    also GROUPING may be known to some as CONTENTGROUP. I am using this to add sub-genre information.

  5. #5
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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantin View Post
    which ones are defined by standard to support multi values? would you have a link you could share please. or could you quote from the standard document, if you cannot do otherwise - thx

    so far I couldn't find such a de jure information from searching the web.
    Can't recall where I saw the information. I know I saw this somewhere. I vaguely recall @mville posting some info on this on a thread on this forum. rather than grouping field you might try STYLE for subgenre info. Not sure whether STYLE accepts multivalue, but you could try that too.

  6. #6
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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Pantin,
    In the past I used multiple values for the STYLE tag for some of my FLAC music. I used Mp3tag to add the multiple values. It was done some time after ripping, when I considered adding STYLE to all of my music.

  7. #7
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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    It is my understanding that in theory, where applicable, any vorbis tag can be multi-value, but over the years many server/player software(s) have not not followed this standard (for reasons unknown). So, some tags are treated as multi-value and some are not.

    I guess dBpoweramp has identified this and has adapted to this situation i.e. it is pointless for dBpoweramp to write a multi-value MOOD tag to file, if no other software is able to parse the tag correctly.

    Currently dBpoweramp supports the following vorbis/flac multi-value tags:
    ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
    ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
    COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
    GENRE
    SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
    STYLE

    and (but I have not used, so cannot confirm)

    LYRICIST (Original lyricist(s)/text writer(s))
    ORIGINAL ARTIST (Original artist(s)/performer(s))
    WRITER (Lyricist/Text writer)

    I am happy to be corrected here, if my understanding is not correct or I have not included important information.

  8. #8

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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    mville, many thx for your list.

    I could not respond earlier because the professional part of life had occupied me, but I'll try to keep up. (Likewise, I do not expect instantaneous replies to my posts from forum members either)

    So, I've used your list and conducted a multivalue test rip. My goal was to see what CD Ripper writes into the tag if 2 values are entered via the CD Ripper tag editor. Comment by comment, namely:

    ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
    ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
    COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
    GENRE
    SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
    STYLE
    LYRICIST
    ORIGINAL ARTIST
    WRITER

    GROUPING
    LANGUAGE
    LOCATION
    MOOD
    PERFORMER, PERFORMERSORT (note: the latter is definitively custom, not sure if DBPA can deal with it)

    Except of PERFORMERSORT all are vorbis comment fields which are (have been) at least discussed, some of it have been part of the 'original' minimal proposed fields names list. The two test values assigned to each field were always separated by DBPA's multivalve delimiter '; ' .

    The Result is frustrating:

    Only for one(!), the COMPOSER, DBPA wrote 2 fields with one value each into the tag (which should happen in ALL multivalve capable Vorbis Comment Fields). For ALL others DBPA seem to have treated it as one string value. Verified it with mp3tag. You can see it in the attached screenshot.

    180410_Test_DBPA_2multiValues_mp3tagView.jpg

    What now? I think I used the correct delimiter '; ' to separate the values, but could there be a configuration setting which I have overlooked?? On the other hand, it (at least) works for COMPOSER.

    So, could it be bug with the OS X version of DBPA (got Rel 16.2)?
    Guess most here in the forum use the Windows version.
    Which version do you use and your above list was experienced with?

    All suggestions welcome

    Pantin

  9. #9
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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantin View Post
    Only for one(!), the COMPOSER, DBPA wrote 2 fields with one value each into the tag (which should happen in ALL multivalve capable Vorbis Comment Fields). For ALL others DBPA seem to have treated it as one string value. Verified it with mp3tag.
    FYI, I am using dBpoweramp R16.4 for windows. All the following are written as multi-value tags:
    ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
    ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
    COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
    GENRE
    SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
    STYLE

    and in MP3Tag (windows v.2.87a), I get multi-value tags showing in the extended tags window.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantin View Post
    So, could it be bug with the OS X version of DBPA (got Rel 16.2)?
    Possibly.

    ... and I don't think the following are treated as multi-value tags, for reasons I gave earlier in post no. 7:
    GROUPING
    LANGUAGE
    LOCATION
    MOOD
    PERFORMER, PERFORMERSORT
    Last edited by mville; 04-10-2018 at 04:23 PM.

  10. #10

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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    pls find my thoughts to post 7

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    It is my understanding that in theory, where applicable, any vorbis tag can be multi-value, ..
    same


    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    .. but over the years many server/player software(s) have not not followed this standard (for reasons unknown). So, some tags are treated as multi-value and some are not.
    Seems not a standard as known from other areas (not a 'de-jure' standard)

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    I guess dBpoweramp has identified this and has adapted to this situation
    same. Seems that many software companies active in this field have created several de-facto standardized Solutions, which in regards to tag handling overlap in great parts but are not 100% same. Which makes transparent information important because Control Points, Renderers and Servers used in the chain are unlikely to come from the same development. Also if there's no unifying momentum (Many Record Labels, players .. huh), the software companies were forced to go ahead like this in order to deliver their product. So, no blame. Just happened that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    i.e. it is pointless for dBpoweramp to write a multi-value MOOD tag to file, if no other software is able to parse the tag correctly.
    I see it like this. Information in a tag is used/needed for

    - finding music in a library regardless of it's size. And how searching is wanted depends on individual user behaviour and should not be constricted (mainly Server, Control Point)
    - sorting it when presented (Server, Control Point)
    - displaying it. many use cases. Either in menu or during a track play-back. Agree, it's is still limited (Control Point, Renderer)
    - creating a file/path structure for your stored ripped music which makes accessing it from the hard drive simple and quick. Be it for batch processing, backup, copying or whatever post-ripping processing. Dpba's File Naming function is really great help for that.

    Multiple values of a FLAC comment field to me are primarily important for indexing my music in order to 'Finding it in your library'. Then I can filter according to all the indexed values and narrow down my selection until I will have found the Music I wanted.

    I use it, for example when searching music typical for a Region

    LOCATION=Europe
    LOCATION=Portugal
    LOCATION=Lisboa

    is my taggig target. It's also faster to tag. I do not like to create 3 custom fields, like CONTINENT, COUNTRY, CITY, etc- which of course would be an alternative approach.

    Similar for MOOD, but at the moment I am just exploring the web and want to see if I can find a scheme which will not end-up in an endless growing list of mood-values. I am prepared to ditch it if not successful

    If Control Points and Renderers grow their display capabilities over the years to come, it's fine too.

  11. #11
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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantin View Post
    pls find my thoughts to post 7...
    Yes, your thoughts and your understandings are similar to mine.

    Sadly, developers have not adhered to standards, so we have to work with what we have.

  12. #12

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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Spoon, could you please have a look and support how to resolve this Multi Value problem with CD Ripper 16.2 Ref for OS X? Issue suspected.

    Testing: In CD Ripper I filled all the tag fields in the list below with 2 values separated by '; ' delimiter to see if it's written into 2 fields with a single value each. List was formed during this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantin View Post
    ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
    ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
    COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
    GENRE
    SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
    STYLE
    LYRICIST
    ORIGINAL ARTIST
    WRITER

    GROUPING
    LANGUAGE
    LOCATION
    MOOD
    PERFORMER, PERFORMERSORT
    Result: only for one(!) the COMPOSER field, DBPA wrote 2 fields with one value each. Checked with mp3tag
    https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/attachm...7&d=1523391964

    Therefore my ask to you

    1) Can you confirm that latest OS X version of CD Ripper shall support the same multivalue handling for FLAC as the latest Windows version? (i.e. multiple values separated by ‘; ‘ delimiter are written by CD Ripper during the ripping process as separate fields, containing a single value each)

    2) Can you confirm which on the above list are multivalue capable in OS X 16.2 Reference?

    3) Can you confirm if it’s a bug in CD Ripper for OS X, or if a settings configuration change can solve it?


    Many thanks!

    Pantin

  13. #13

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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Spoon, could you please have a look and support how to resolve this Multi Value Problem with CD Ripper 16.2 Ref for OS X? Issue suspected.

    Issue testing: My goal was to see what CD Ripper writes into the tag if 2 values are entered before ripping with CD Ripper. This list below formed in the course of this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantin View Post
    ALBUM ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST SORT
    ARTIST, ARTIST SORT
    COMPOSER, COMPOSERSORT
    GENRE
    SOLOISTS, SOLOISTSSORT
    STYLE
    LYRICIST
    ORIGINAL ARTIST
    WRITER

    GROUPING
    LANGUAGE
    LOCATION
    MOOD
    PERFORMER, PERFORMERSORT

    180410_Test_DBPA_2multiValues_mp3tagView.jpg
    The result: Only for one(!), the COMPOSER, 2 fields with one value each were written by CD Ripper into the tag (which should happen in all multivalue capable Vorbis Comment Fields). Verified with mp3tag.

    Therefore my asks to you

    1) Can you confirm that the latest OS X version of CD Ripper shall support the same multivalue handling for FLAC as the latest Windows version? (i.e. multiple values separated by ‘; ‘ delimiter are written by CD Ripper during the ripping process as separate comment fields, containing a single value each)

    2) Can you confirm which on the above list are multivalue capable in OS X 16.2 Reference?

    3) Can you confirm if it’s a bug in CD Ripper for OS X, or if a settings configuration change can solve it ?

    Many thanks!

    Pantin

  14. #14
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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantin View Post
    Issue testing: My goal was to see what CD Ripper writes into the tag if 2 values are entered before ripping with CD Ripper...

    The result: Only for one(!), the COMPOSER, 2 fields with one value each were written by CD Ripper into the tag (which should happen in all multivalue capable Vorbis Comment Fields). Verified with mp3tag.
    Please can you confirm on which platform you are verifying with MP3Tag, as the software is windows only?

  15. #15

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    Re: Tagging - How CD Ripper handles Vorbis/Flac Comment Fields

    Mp3tag packaged and running under Wine. I think it's latest version v2.87a from their Website, but I can check when home

    Verified same also with Metadatics which is a tag editor program designed for OS X

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