Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

[monsterjazzlick]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Does anyone use the INSTRUMENT tag (for their Classicals, or any other genre for that matter), please?

[schmidj]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

FYI, I put the artist (usually orchestra; conductor or visa versa, sometimes with soloists appended in the artist tag. I put the composer in the composer tag, but also at the beginning of the title tag, followed by a colon and space. I used to put the composer at the end of the title in parenthesis. My car radio, where I do most of my listening (via Bluetooth from my phone) doesn't display composer (no surprise) and with the car I have now the (expensive supposedly high end) radio doesn't even scroll the title or artist. It also doesn't display the artwork I've so laboriously added, but rather artwork recovered from Gracenote, usually generic or wrong. Bummer. Without the scroll, the composer in parenthesis usually is off the screen.

[Oggy]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

You have a good memory!

Don't your eyes get tired when tagging for a whole evening?!

Paul

Paul,

I actually have a lousy (short-term) memory, but can read.

I don't tag Classical or complex CDs in the evening, but when there is peace and quiet in the house. Yes, it can be tiring and I sometimes make little mistakes and have some unintentional variations, such as No./ no., but always try and get the basics correct. Because this thread made me aware of these little inconsistencies, I'll try and keep to this format, which after re-visiting, I prefer:

Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 "Choral"

I really don't lose sleep over the odd typo, but it obviously makes sense to stick to one format, for one genre, and try to not make errors! By far the most important part of ripping and tagging, is the pleasure gained by listening to music!!


I have walked away a few times from tagging a CD and tried again another day.....

[monsterjazzlick]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Hi Oggy,

When a symphony has a nickname (eg. Choral, Bear, London) then I am inclined to not use quotation marks (as you have done). I think I am just going to use parenthesis instead. At the very most, I might use inverted commas.

In a slightly different scenario, in Gustav Holst's Suite de Ballet:

Suite de Ballet in E Flat Major; iv. Carnival

I have left the final 'Carnival' with no parenthesis, quotation marks, or inverted commas.

Paul

N.B. In another post (in this thread) I think you said that one of your governing factors regarding tagging was: 'most significant element' (or words to that effect)?

[monsterjazzlick]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

FYI, I put the artist (usually orchestra; conductor or visa versa, sometimes with soloists appended in the artist tag. I put the composer in the composer tag, but also at the beginning of the title tag, followed by a colon and space. I used to put the composer at the end of the title in parenthesis. My car radio, where I do most of my listening (via Bluetooth from my phone) doesn't display composer (no surprise) and with the car I have now the (expensive supposedly high end) radio doesn't even scroll the title or artist. It also doesn't display the artwork I've so laboriously added, but rather artwork recovered from Gracenote, usually generic or wrong. Bummer. Without the scroll, the composer in parenthesis usually is off the screen.

Thanks Schmidj,

So your choice(s) for deciding upon a suitable tagging scheme are governed by the capabilities/functionality of your main playback devide?

But while you are driving, does it really matter if the display scrolls or not? I mean, your eyes are on the rod because you are driving!

Paul

[Oggy]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Hi Oggy,

When a symphony has a nickname (eg. Choral, Bear, London) then I am inclined to not use quotation marks (as you have done). I think I am just going to use parenthesis instead. At the very most, I might use inverted commas.

In a slightly different scenario, in Gustav Holst's Suite de Ballet:

Suite de Ballet in E Flat Major; iv. Carnival

I have left the final 'Carnival' with no parenthesis, quotation marks, or inverted commas.

Paul

N.B. In another post (in this thread) I think you said that one of your governing factors regarding tagging was: 'most significant element' (or words to that effect)?

Paul,

What you have used makes perfect sense, I honestly believe you are better off using what comes instinctively to you, as you are far more likely to end up with consistent tagging with less effort.

Yes, in Classical music, I believe for most people that the composer is of far more significance than conductor, orchestra and soloist.

Holst - The Planet Suite, would probably work extremely well for the majority.

[Oggy]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

FYI, I put the artist (usually orchestra; conductor or visa versa, sometimes with soloists appended in the artist tag. I put the composer in the composer tag, but also at the beginning of the title tag, followed by a colon and space. I used to put the composer at the end of the title in parenthesis. My car radio, where I do most of my listening (via Bluetooth from my phone) doesn't display composer (no surprise) and with the car I have now the (expensive supposedly high end) radio doesn't even scroll the title or artist. It also doesn't display the artwork I've so laboriously added, but rather artwork recovered from Gracenote, usually generic or wrong. Bummer. Without the scroll, the composer in parenthesis usually is off the screen.

Hi schimdj,

After reading this, when I was driving in my car this morning, I hit Genre - Classical, to see what came up. I use a controller for my iPod, which was ripped via iTunes before I understood the importance of tags, and glaring errors aside, accepted the default naming. I was greeted by Conductors, Orchestras and Soloist, often mixed together, as I hadn't used the Composer name as Artist - I was guessing the music from the Conductor.

Composer = Artist may be very wrong, but because most players seem to operate best with Popular music naming of Artist / Album. As a stop gap, or at least a method of ensuring Composer / Work displayed, I decided to use Artist = Album Artist = Composer, and tag the other important fields, which can be viewed on the home player if required.

I do think it is a big compromise, but does work in cars, and as far as I know, all players.

[monsterjazzlick]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

What you have used makes perfect sense, I honestly believe you are better off using what comes instinctively to you, as you are far more likely to end up with consistent tagging with less effort.

Yes, in Classical music, I believe for most people that the composer is of far more significance than conductor, orchestra and soloist.

Holst - The Planet Suite, would probably work extremely well for the majority.

Thanks Oggy,

Yes, I agree; COMPOSER is paramount for Classicals.

I just spent quite a long time deciding on how to tag a classical CD which contains many of the factors previously discussed.

For Chopin's 'The 26 Preludes':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preludes_(Chopin)

I include the Italian-term (Agitato); which is separated - from the title - by a colon; and the Op. placed in parentheses (at the end). Personally. for my own liking, I do not think I can better this in any way:

Prelude No.1 in C Major: Agitato (Op.28)

Thanks.

[Oggy]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Personally. for my own liking, I do not think I can better this in any way:

Bingo! The only people you need to please on naming, is your significant other, and yourself!!

I try to use musical naming conventions, but that doesn't necessarily make it "right"!

[monsterjazzlick]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Bingo! The only people you need to please on naming, is your significant other, and yourself!!

I try to use musical naming conventions, but that doesn't necessarily make it "right"!

I feel like I am getting somewhere now, finally!

I may have to tweak again, as previously mentioned, once I start ripping Classical symphonies which contain a nickname, and also a different OP. for each movement. But, I believe, the format I have currently arrived at makes a pretty good all-round working model.

As regards to Chopin's:

Prelude No.22 in G Minor: Molto agitato (Op.28)

you can see that I heave retained your idea of lowercase 'in', and lowercase for the second Italian term.

I have not ever used COMPOSERSORT tag as yet. This may be something I will redress once I have finished entirely.

[schmidj]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Hi Paul,

Yes, part of having tags is being able to read them. I want at least enough information saved so the CD and its material is reasonably identified and can be searched for, but also read when it's playing. (As you might guess, I'm not going to spend hours on debating whether to capitalize No. More power to those who do, but I still have a couple thousand CDs to rip (actually re-rip, except for new purchases, the remaining ones were all ripped, poorly using Winamp some years ago.) Then I'll start digitizing the rest of the thousand or so LP's if I live that long...

Hey, I don't stare at the radio when driving, but glancing at it when at a stoplight isn't an issue. And most drivers take their eyes off the road to glance at other things, that's what the speedometer is there for, and it usually pays to keep an occasional eye on the rear view mirror, and my navigation system. But yes, all the distractions can become a safety issue.

I once took a taxi from home to the airport when the driver has a portable DVD player propped up on the dash, he was trying to watch a movie while driving on the highway!!! I was very tempted to tell him to stop and get out. But then I'd have been standing on the highway with no ride. I'll tell you I never used that taxi company again!

John

[monsterjazzlick]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Yes, part of having tags is being able to read them. I want at least enough information saved so the CD and its material is reasonably identified and can be searched for, but also read when it's playing. (As you might guess, I'm not going to spend hours on debating whether to capitalize No. More power to those who do, but I still have a couple thousand CDs to rip (actually re-rip, except for new purchases, the remaining ones were all ripped, poorly using Winamp some years ago.) Then I'll start digitizing the rest of the thousand or so LP's if I live that long...

Hey, I don't stare at the radio when driving, but glancing at it when at a stoplight isn't an issue. And most drivers take their eyes off the road to glance at other things, that's what the speedometer is there for, and it usually pays to keep an occasional eye on the rear view mirror, and my navigation system. But yes, all the distractions can become a safety issue.

Thanks John,

Again, I guess I am in the minority because I don't listen to the radio/music whilst driving. I enjoy the silence. Plus, I could not concentrate on listening to a CD and simultaneously negotiating a busy motorway!

I have a small handful LPs that have been ripped (by a studio friend) to CD (Wav.). This was only because they have never been released on CD (eg. Dudley Moore Jazz Trio). I admire if you ever attempt to digitze your own entire LP collection! Lucky, mine only consist of a grand total of FOUR!

The first job I made at ripping (10 years ago) using Windows Media Player was abysmal. And to 'WMA' format! Enough said!

I decided to be very anal and capitalise/lowercase letters as I saw fit (with the help of Oggy and Jailhouse). It tripled the time it took to tag a CD!; but I am glad I have done so and am now in the habit of following this suit.

btw - Do you use INSTRUMENT tag, please?

Paul

[schmidj]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Hi again Oggy,

Yes, that is actually how my database of owned media (a Microsoft Access database of LPs, CDs DVDs and rips/downloads where I have no physical media, primarily to avoide getting duplicates, long precedes ripping music) handles classical. And how the classical ripped on Winamp was done. Nothing "wrong" with putting the composer in the artist field, this is all personal preference, which presumably includes how usable it is in your system.

One reason I chose to go with the composer in composer system is that so many classical CDs have more than one composer on the CD, but all performed by the same symphony/conductor. (Like going to a concert) Since there was now, in dBpoweramp, a visible conductor tag, I started to use it. It made searches simple, I could now search for the Boston Pops if I wanted, or for Strauss. But most of the time when driving, my player in the phone is set for random playback, and sometimes I'd like to know what I'm listening to...

Anyway, there is no right or wrong way (the "wrongest" is no tags at all!) It is all personal preference.

[schmidj]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

Hi Paul,

No I don't use Instrument, although there might be some data there unintentionally captured from one of the metadata services. I wasn't aware of the existence of the tag until the last few months. I don't actually currently use anything beyond Genre, where I often put multiple values, but that may be changing. Actually, I have a use for Instrument, but not in classical, where I rarely care what the instrument is. The largest part of my collection is Caribbean, specifically Soca, Calypso and Steelband or Steelpan. Right now if I have a CD or track played by a steelband that is classical music, I have a multivalue genre that has Steelband and Classical in it. But the filtering engines don't seem to allow Boolean statements like "and" or "or" (or "not") So If I want to listen to classical music performed by a steelband (Yes, there is quit a bit of it, a real treat to me.) it is difficult to search for. But if I had Classical as a single value genre tag, and Steelband as the instrument, then the sort would be simpler, if, and a big if, the filtering software recognized the Instrument tag. Same thing with Christmas music, now multi tagged in Genre, but would be better in style. (but I need an "not" in the filter engine so I can avoid the Christmas music in July...)

This metadata sorting/filtering business is in its infancy, and has a long way to go to be fully useful. Someone here asked for a system to allow for a mix of random selections of different genres/styles/moods. Not doable now, but radio stations have done that for many years, and more. When I can set up Sequel Server searches and filters of an accessible database of music and send the output to a player (possibly as a playlist) then I'll be satisfied. I can do Sequel Server searches on my Access database of owned media now, but that only has one entry per CD or record, no entries for tracks, so I have a long way to go.

John

[monsterjazzlick]

Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

No I don't use Instrument, although there might be some data there unintentionally captured from one of the metadata services. I wasn't aware of the existence of the tag until the last few months. I don't actually currently use anything beyond Genre, where I often put multiple values, but that may be changing.

OK, I see; fair enough John. I am thinking of - once again! - making an exception for Classical in this respect. I have a few albums which are for a SOLO instrument (eg. '24 Preludes & Fugues (Op.87)' - Dmitri Shostakovich), in this case: piano. I also have string-quartet CDs which could be tagged this was using INSTRUMENT. If I were to use this tag, then it would only be if the instrument was solo, or if the section instruments were common.

This metadata sorting/filtering business is in its infancy, and has a long way to go to be fully useful. Someone here asked for a system to allow for a mix of random selections of different genres/styles/moods. Not doable now, but radio stations have done that for many years, and more. When I can set up Sequel Server searches and filters of an accessible database of music and send the output to a player (possibly as a playlist) then I'll be satisfied. I can do Sequel Server searches on my Access database of owned media now, but that only has one entry per CD or record, no entries for tracks, so I have a long way to go.

I have never used 'random' play before, myself. I have been at a party or travelling when someone else is using it though. I never liked it because it really is too 'random'! Plus, if it selects a track from a 'concept' album, you lose the 'concept' because the surrounding tracks are, arguably, completely unrelated.

Paul