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Thread: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

  1. #1
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    Question Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Hi folks,

    I am going to post some (you guessed it!) 'tagging' questions here.

    I have now ripped over 50GB of my CD collection to date, and am thinking of making some amendments. The questions will mostly be related to ',' and ';' (within CD ripper), but there will be a few different fields I would like to discuss.

    My other (popular) thread is already very long (though I am of course most grateful for all of the kind responses), and so I though I might tackle these recent issues under separate cover.

    Cheers,

    Paul
    Last edited by monsterjazzlick; 10-06-2017 at 05:27 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Question Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Hi,

    This album ("The Enchantment") by Chick Corea and Bela Fleck was also PRODUCED by these two artists. Hence I stated both their names in the PRODUCER field:


    I have been learning about the difference between ',' ad ';' this week (thanks!) in the context of ARTISTS and ALBUM_ARTISTS, but I am not quite sure what I should use in this instance, please?

    I mean, I would like each artist (ie. Producer) to be treated discreetly (I think that's the term?), and not as a combo (to borrow Gary's term). Therefore, should I write:

    PRODUCER = Chick Corea; Bela Fleck

    The reason I ask is because I am not sure if the same rules apply to the PRODUCER tag as to ARTIST and ALBUM_ARTIST?

    Much appreciated,

    Paul
    Last edited by monsterjazzlick; 10-06-2017 at 06:12 PM. Reason: Insert Image

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    Question Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Hi,

    I have, up to now, been using the '/' within some of the tagging fields of dBpa.

    For example, I might use:

    PRODUCER = Quincy Jones / Herbie Hancock

    LABEL = Polydor / Verve

    VENUE = CBS / New York

    Forward Slash.png

    But now I am thinking I would have been better using a ',' or ';' instead? I think the reason I used the forward slash may have been directly in relation to how my (no more) Sony Walkman handled the data.

    I am not sure if this would make any difference in Foobar - I am pretty should it would not - but I have an Amazon Tablet now and who knows, maybe in a few years time I might own a different player altogether. In which case, I would like to follow the traditional path here.

    Cheers,

    Paul
    Last edited by monsterjazzlick; 10-06-2017 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Insert Image

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    Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    You first need to figure out which tags handle multiple values. We know that ARTIST does for example. and the ";" is something used to create multiple value tags. But I think many of the tags you mention do not currently allow for multiple values. For example, I'm not sure about PRODUCER, LABEL, VENUE. But I'd guess they do NOT handle multiple values. So you'd be back to using "," or "/".

    You need to make sure you fully understand this multiple value issue. When you have "Chick Corea; Bela Fleck" in an ARTIST tag in dbpa in a FLAC file, you are actually creating TWO different ARTIST tag fields. But if you create ARTIST = Chick Corea, Bela Fleck, you have created a SINGLE ARTIST tag with the value "Chick Corea, Bela Fleck". See for example, how the tag detail shows up in this pic from mp3tag program. I created multiple tag value for ARTIST = Willie Nelson; Wynton Marsailis. But note in pic how there are actually two tag fields called ARTIST, each with one of the artist values.
    Capture.JPG

    And even with mulitple field tags, it often depends on how the server/player you use displays things. Nothing can replace trial and error in making these decisions and testing them out. There is no right answer. Only what works in your situation.

    edit: tagging is a never ending job for me. Just showing you that willie nelson example, made me realize I needed to change the Genre to "Blues" instead of Jazz. I also noticed that I had a total DISCs tag set to "1" when I actually didn't even want that tag, so I deleted it. Fortunately, post-rip tag editing is easy compared with ripping. Then again, you're paying a lot more attention to the metadata for each disk you rip than I used to. I'm better at it now.
    Last edited by garym; 10-07-2017 at 08:04 AM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by garym View Post
    You first need to figure out which tags handle multiple values. We know that ARTIST does for example. and the ";" is something used to create multiple value tags. But I think many of the tags you mention do not currently allow for multiple values. For example, I'm not sure about PRODUCER, LABEL, VENUE. But I'd guess they do NOT handle multiple values. So you'd be back to using "," or "/".

    You need to make sure you fully understand this multiple value issue. When you have "Chick Corea; Bela Fleck" in an ARTIST tag in dbpa in a FLAC file, you are actually creating TWO different ARTIST tag fields. But if you create ARTIST = Chick Corea, Bela Fleck, you have created a SINGLE ARTIST tag with the value "Chick Corea, Bela Fleck". See for example, how the tag detail shows up in this pic from mp3tag program. I created multiple tag value for ARTIST = Willie Nelson; Wynton Marsailis. But note in pic how there are actually two tag fields called ARTIST, each with one of the artist values.
    Capture.JPG

    And even with mulitple field tags, it often depends on how the server/player you use displays things. Nothing can replace trial and error in making these decisions and testing them out. There is no right answer. Only what works in your situation.
    Spot on garym, but we shouldn't need to keep repeating ourselves in these forums. This is pretty much what I have already answered in post no. 603 here: RE: Ripping Level Question (help?)

  6. #6
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    Question Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by garym View Post
    You first need to figure out which tags handle multiple values. We know that ARTIST does for example. and the ";" is something used to create multiple value tags. But I think many of the tags you mention do not currently allow for multiple values. For example, I'm not sure about PRODUCER, LABEL, VENUE. But I'd guess they do NOT handle multiple values. So you'd be back to using "," or "/".
    Hi Gary,

    Thanks very much.

    Yes, that's kinda what I thought to be honest, and also going by what mville had kindly mentioned earlier on this week.

    As I say, I am considering changing the '/' to a ',' (in the instances of: PRODUCER, LABEL, VENUE). The reason I was asking is because I am thinking that it might be best to use a consistent selection of 'symbols' across my tagging scheme. Really, in this sense, the forward-slash would be better being replaced by the comma. And there is also the guesstimate that most playback devices would interpret a ',' more accurately than a '/' symbol.

    Paul

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    Question Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by garym View Post
    You need to make sure you fully understand this multiple value issue. When you have "Chick Corea; Bela Fleck" in an ARTIST tag in dbpa in a FLAC file, you are actually creating TWO different ARTIST tag fields. But if you create ARTIST = Chick Corea, Bela Fleck, you have created a SINGLE ARTIST tag with the value "Chick Corea, Bela Fleck". See for example, how the tag detail shows up in this pic from mp3tag program. I created multiple tag value for ARTIST = Willie Nelson; Wynton Marsailis. But note in pic how there are actually two tag fields called ARTIST, each with one of the artist values.
    Capture.JPG

    And even with mulitple field tags, it often depends on how the server/player you use displays things. Nothing can replace trial and error in making these decisions and testing them out. There is no right answer. Only what works in your situation.
    Gary,

    That was interesting to see how 'mp3tag' created ARTIST tags for Masarlis and Nelson. Thanks for the screenshot.

    I think I am OK now with the fact that - in dBpa - I am tagging:

    ARTIST = Chick Corea; Bela Fleck (so as to create two individual artists) and omitting the combo (Chick Corea, Bela Fleck)

    ALBUM ARTIST = Chick Corea; Bela Fleck (so as to create two individual artists) and omitting the combo (Chick Corea, Bela Fleck)

    I took a while, admittedly!, but I am happy with the folder structure and the way in which everything appears in Foobar. I think that spending an afternoon testing and testing yesterday, it really helped me. Also, when I first purchased Illustrate, I was totally concerned and paranoid about messing something up, irretrievably. Now, because I have the data backed-up in two separate locations, I am experimenting more.

    Paul

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    Question Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by garym View Post
    edit: tagging is a never ending job for me. Just showing you that willie nelson example, made me realize I needed to change the Genre to "Blues" instead of Jazz. I also noticed that I had a total DISCs tag set to "1" when I actually didn't even want that tag, so I deleted it. Fortunately, post-rip tag editing is easy compared with ripping. Then again, you're paying a lot more attention to the metadata for each disk you rip than I used to. I'm better at it now.
    Gary,

    Ha ha, I noticed that the Genre was set to 'Jazz'. But it kind of is because Masarlis plays Jazz trumpet throughout. But I would probably list it under Jazz, Blues and possibly Country (RE: Nelson).

    I have added more tagging fields as time progressed, as you mention. I only started out with the basic info, but now there is quite a lot of data. The great thing is though. Foobar will pick up anything and from any angle (unlike any other player I have, and do, own). I can search for (say) VENUE location by typing in 'New Jersey' and it will bring up all of the 'Blue Note' Recordings. Or I can search for CBS STUDIO and it will provide me with 'Columbia Studios A/B/C/D/E' - so I can narrow it down to the specific studio!

    'VLC' on my new Amazon Tablet is nowhere near as sophisticated in this sense. But at least I can HEAR the music (unlike the Sony)!

    Cheers,

    Paul
    Last edited by monsterjazzlick; 10-07-2017 at 10:55 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Question Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    Spot on garym, but we shouldn't need to keep repeating ourselves in these forums. This is pretty much what I have already answered in post no. 603 here: RE: Ripping Level Question (help?)
    Quote Originally Posted by mville
    You probably need to get your head around the difference between a single tag and a multi-value tag and which tags are single and multi-value, as not all tags are multi-value e.g. the Album tag.

    For a multi-value tag, Illustrate uses the semi-colon purely as a searator for display purposes. Example, Composer and Composer Sort are multi-value tags:

    Composer Sort = Lennon, John; McCartney, Paul

    here, composer sort holds 2 separate data values Lennon, John and McCartney, Paul with no semi-colon. The semi-colon is purely for display.
    Hi mville,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I did look over the above post many times (I probably spent an hour analysing it!) and used your protocol in this instance:

    eg. COMPOSER = Miles Davis; John Coltrane

    COMPOSER SORT = Davis, Miles; Coltrane, John

    And I also used the ';' for ARTIST and ALBUM ARTIST (alongside their respective SORT tags). Everything seems to be working GREAT now and so I am very grateful for your help, thanks.

    But I chose to post a new thread here for a couple of reasons, if you don't mind:

    1 - the initial thread was becoming very long (though I do really appreciated everyone's contributions);

    2 - I wanted to look into some of the different options of tagging in a little more detail. I have stopped all ripping now until I have addressed any data which my need amending. For example, the PRODUCER and VENUE tags (where I have used the '/' symbol).

    Much appreciated,

    Paul

    EDIT: I am putting off CLASSICAL until next year!!!
    Last edited by monsterjazzlick; 10-07-2017 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Quotation

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    Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by monsterjazzlick View Post
    I chose to post a new thread here for a couple of reasons, if you don't mind:

    1 - the initial thread was becoming very long (though I do really appreciated everyone's contributions);

    2 - I wanted to look into some of the different options of tagging in a little more detail. I have stopped all ripping now until I have addressed any data which my need amending. For example, the PRODUCER and VENUE tags (where I have used the '/' symbol).
    No problem. It's just that often when I read these forums it does seem that the pertinent information is ignored, for one reason or another.

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    Question Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    No problem. It's just that often when I read these forums it does seem that the pertinent information is ignored, for one reason or another.
    Hi Mville,

    OK, I see your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by mville
    For a multi-value tag, Illustrate uses the semi-colon purely as a searator for display purposes. Example, Composer and Composer Sort are multi-value tags:

    Composer Sort = Lennon, John; McCartney, Paul

    here, composer sort holds 2 separate data values Lennon, John and McCartney, Paul with no semi-colon. The semi-colon is purely for display.
    I am going to edit my COMPOSER tags next following your kind (above) suggestion.

    Paul
    Last edited by monsterjazzlick; 10-07-2017 at 11:58 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    ... just to double-check (if you don't mind please; because it's going to be a mammoth task!), I have used:

    COMPOSER: David Foster; Jay Graydon; Al Jarreau

    COMPOSER_SORT: Foster, David; Graydon, Jay; Jarreau, Al

    I have never used a COMPOSER_SORT tag before. But, because you seem like an expert!, it seems like a good idea to include one.

    As you can see, I place the composers in alphabetical order because I like them to show up this way on my playback-device. 99% of the time, you have to re-shuffle them from how they appear by default within dBpa.

    With regards to ',' and ';' I am assuming that the same rules apply for 2 composers as they do for 3.

    Many thanks,

    Paul
    Last edited by monsterjazzlick; 10-07-2017 at 12:14 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by monsterjazzlick View Post
    ... just to double-check (if you don't mind please; because it's going to be a mammoth task!), I have used:
    COMPOSER: David Foster; Jay Graydon; Al Jarreau

    COMPOSER_SORT: Foster, David; Graydon, Jay; Jarreau, Al

    I have never used a COMPOSER_SORT tag before. But, because you seem like an expert!, it seems like a good idea to include one.
    Don't include tags because it seems like a good idea, because you might be wrong or not understand their impact on server/player software and you could end up with unpredictable results (as I think you have discovered previously). Far better for you to understand why these tags exist and what they do.

    The sort tags are used by server/player software to sort the tags. If you only have the Composer tag populated:
    COMPOSER = David Foster; Jay Graydon; Al Jarreau

    then server/player software sorts David Foster under D, Jay Graydon under J and Al Jarreau under A.

    If you add the sort tag:
    COMPOSER SORT = Foster, David; Graydon, Jay; Jarreau, Al

    then server/player software sorts David Foster under F, Jay Graydon under G and Al Jarreau under J, based on what you populate the sort tags with.

    Quote Originally Posted by monsterjazzlick View Post
    With regards to ',' and ';' I am assuming that the same rules apply for 2 composers as they do for 3.
    Yes. The same rules apply regardless of how many composers you have.

    If your server/player software does not use the comma to perform any specific task, it can be viewed just like any other alpha-numeric character. The semi-colon is different however, as some software (including Illustrate) use the semi-colon as the multi-value tag separator.

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    Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by monsterjazzlick View Post
    Gary,

    That was interesting to see how 'mp3tag' created ARTIST tags for Masarlis and Nelson. Thanks for the screenshot.
    Small point. But note that mp3tag did NOT create those ARTIST tags. Dbpa created them using the semicolon when I ripped. But mp3tag *displays* the actual output, that is that two artist tag fields were created.

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    Question Re: Tags, Tags, and more Tags ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    The sort tags are used by server/player software to sort the tags. If you only have the Composer tag populated:
    COMPOSER = David Foster; Jay Graydon; Al Jarreau

    then server/player software sorts David Foster under D, Jay Graydon under J and Al Jarreau under A.

    If you add the sort tag:
    COMPOSER SORT = Foster, David; Graydon, Jay; Jarreau, Al

    then server/player software sorts David Foster under F, Jay Graydon under G and Al Jarreau under J, based on what you populate the sort tags with.

    If your server/player software does not use the comma to perform any specific task, it can be viewed just like any other alpha-numeric character. The semi-colon is different however, as some software (including Illustrate) use the semi-colon as the multi-value tag separator.
    Thanks very much mville,

    I appreciate that.

    I think, in light of the above, that I am going to leave out the COMPOSER_SORT tag now. Thinking about it, I will just stick with:

    COMPOSER = David Foster; Jay Graydon; Al Jarreau

    and no respective SORT.

    I amended a couple of CDs just to see how much time it would take and it's a big task! Rearranging all of the christian and surnames is a bit of a mission! But compiling the COMPOSER tag alone is, by comparison, a pretty quick job.

    Cheers,

    Paul
    Last edited by monsterjazzlick; 10-07-2017 at 03:22 PM. Reason: spelling

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