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Thread: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

  1. #16
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by daleyb View Post
    thanks GaryM... and Oggy your advice to take my flac rips to a Hi-fi dealer is really So simple (and Common Sense) I'm surprised I really didn't think of that!!. ( A few cd rips on a USB mem. Stick should do the trick!)

    One Of the problems faced by me (and many) is Now the lack of Hifi Dealers in My area. Hifi buying changed in the last 20 years with the High street shops going.I Have to go out a few miles to find "high-end" stores. I can read Hifi reviews in Mags/Online... but Hardly the same has Proper demos.

    Think the Cyrus is DNLA based.But using Asset Should help.correct me if I am wrong But Asset only supports Qnap NOT synology...Hence my Choice.
    Getting some feedback from several sources is useful in exploring your options. I'll throw in my 2 cents. First, a good hi-fi shop may be an excellent place to start. That said, buyer-beware. Many of the few remaining hi-fi shops I've dealt with in recent years have folks that are almost worse that clueless about digital music and streaming. I say worse than clueless because rather than saying "I don't really know" they instead think they do know, and know better. You'll hear very strange and entirely wrong things such as WAV sounds better than FLaC (even though both are lossless and any differences can be TESTED) and even that FLAC files *created* on some computer operating systems sound better than a bit perfect copy of same FLAC files created on a different operating system. Bizarre I know, but you'll even find stuff like this published in hi-end stereo magazines (The Absolute Sound is one of the worst offenders with sometimes publishing complete nonsense). These same dealers/shop owners can be upstanding, knowledgeable people about stereos and audio otherwise. I find that too many try to bring analog concepts over into digital.

    You say you don't care about multiroom, synched playback and just want digital music at your main stereo. I assume you want to be able to then control all this from your chair via a smart phone or smart pad. For this setup, I'd recommend something like a small, headless, fanless, keyboardless computer with a USB or S/PDIF output. Run Logitech Media Server (LMS) on this computer (which is designed for serving music to squeezeboxes) and this becomes your SERVER. But you don't need a hardware squeezebox. You can simply install the software SQUEEZELITE on this computer and that becomes your PLAYER. You can control all this from a smart phone or tablet (or another laptop or computer on your network). If you use iThings, I suggest the app "iPeng". For your music, just connect a 3 or 4 TB external USB drive to your computer to hold your music (or use the computers internal HDD if it is large enough). If you want something turnkey with all this, I'd recommend a "Vortexbox" on a microcomputer (fanless). I have one and find it very nice to use. Small & silent and runs 24/7 for months at a time (I only reboot occasionally to install some software updates).

    Then connect the USB out or S/PDIF out of the computer to the input on your DAC, your DAC to your stereo input, and you're good to go. LMS and your computer will deliver bitperfect audio files to your DAC. So the quality of your sound will be based on your DAC and Speakers and room environment. (I left out stereo amp/preamp simply because beyond certain badly designed stuff (some cheap, some very expensive) any decent quality amp/preamp should work well.

    At this point you'd have a quality audio server software setup (LMS, that is being continuously developed by an active userbase even though Logitech long ago dropped Squeezeboxes) and the ability to stream bitperfect lossless files to your stereo, all being controlled by your smart phone or tablet. If the computer is connected to the internet, an extra bonus is that you can also play internet radio from this same setup (free stuff from 1000s of streaming radio stations, BBC, BBC on demand, and even premium services like Spotify, tidal, Quobuz, etc.)

    Anyhow, just my 2 cents. There are lots of different options. I don't work for any of these folks, just a happy user....
    Last edited by garym; 03-20-2016 at 05:08 PM.

  2. #17
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Thanks for that Info GaryM. Your way may be a lot cheaper (and more stable/efficient than mine)

    My way was : Main computer (Downstairs) With NAS With 2x 4tb Red HDS.>to Router.Then (upstairs) I have my main Hifi. Hooked up with TPLINK wired to Streamer>Wired to amp> Control by Android Pad' VIA asset (I dont do Apple) to speakers=MUSIC! (well thats in theory how it going to work..)

    The STREAMER already has A DAC.(£1300 ish) The Qnap Nas is about £300 and the WD RED HDs( About £ 130 each -X2).........

    of course this is just ONE option, and a pretty expensive one. thats why I need guidance, from a Good dealer. But like you say most Dont Know that much...But they should.

  3. #18
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Thanks for posting the alternative approach, I'm pleased someone has, and explained the advantages very clearly.

    Having worked in Hi-Fi shops for nearly 15 years, I am saddened by your experiences, Gary. I guess one advantage of living in the UK is having a choice of dealer wthin a two hour drive. With less people being interested in good sound than 20 - 40 years ago, the market is smaller and dealers will simply not survive by offering mediocre service - we do have some good dealers. I haven't worked in the trade for nearly 15 years, but still have friends who still do - I'm sure they would also be disappointed (but maybe not surprised?) at your experiences.

    I am lucky in having a very good dealer close to me, who are also forward thinking enough to employ a younger salesman, who is very tech savvy and helpful! The great thing is that they carry a range of renderers and DACs, so customers can listen for themselves. At some time in the future I will be in the same position as daleyb and one of my questions was, how does a top DAC / computer, compare with a stand alone renderer. I get the impression that renderers are more popular in the UK, than the US, but could be very wrong!

    Maybe because I worked in the trade, my advice is always, find a good dealer and listen for yourself. I guess the hard bit is finding a good dealer! In my time Hi-Fi magazine reviews and recommendations seemed to tie in more with full page colour adverts, rather than actually sounding good. Sadly doubt if much has changed.
    Last edited by Oggy; 03-21-2016 at 11:11 AM.

  4. #19
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    I'm in the UK and have to say my experience of Hi-Fi dealers is somewhat similar to that of garym in the US. I have been astounded at the lack of knowledge and by the lies I have been fed in this whole area. One dealer in the South of England even tried to tell me that streaming audio was illegal!!

    What is important to remember is that once you have your audio library, you do not need to spend thousands to get up and running, especially if you don't need a multi-room setup. The technology is still in it's infancy, so I suggest it is not a good idea to spend a lot of money on hardware, that may quickly become out-dated/redundant.

    There are many sites/forums where audio enthusiasts share their experiences of building cheap Home Theater PC/Backup Servers. A HTPC combined with a decent DAC, I believe is an excellent, cost effective way to get started, as you learn the basics and discover just what is possible.

  5. #20
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by daleyb View Post
    Thanks for that Info GaryM. Your way may be a lot cheaper (and more stable/efficient than mine)

    My way was : Main computer (Downstairs) With NAS With 2x 4tb Red HDS.>to Router.Then (upstairs) I have my main Hifi. Hooked up with TPLINK wired to Streamer>Wired to amp> Control by Android Pad' VIA asset (I dont do Apple) to speakers=MUSIC! (well thats in theory how it going to work..)

    The STREAMER already has A DAC.(£1300 ish) The Qnap Nas is about £300 and the WD RED HDs( About £ 130 each -X2).........

    of course this is just ONE option, and a pretty expensive one. thats why I need guidance, from a Good dealer. But like you say most Dont Know that much...But they should.
    Hi, daleyb

    Seeing as you are pricing in pounds, sterling, I guess you live in the UK. If so, in my experience, biased of course(!), we do have some good dealers, and they should be able to help, advise and back up their opinions by demonstration. If they cannot demonstrate to you that a more expensive product is better, then it either isn't, or they are not doing a good job, simple!

    The reason I added a top DAC to the Cyrus, Linn, Naim list, is so you can make your own mind up, and end up with a sound you are delighted with. I honestly don't know which way I would go on the computer / DAC vs renderer question. When I asked the dealer that very question, he gave a very clear answer - when I am nearer to making my buying decision, I will listen and trust my ears. If I agree with the dealers opinion, they will have built some trust with me - buying Hi-Fi is very easy once you've found a good dealer!

    The only other suggestion I'll give now is, back up your files! A mirrored RAID configuration is not a back up, at some time in the future, your HDD will die, sad, but true.

    Good luck and happy listening!
    Last edited by Oggy; 03-21-2016 at 12:09 PM.

  6. #21
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    The only other suggestion I'll give now is, back up your files! A mirrored RAID configuration is not a back up, at some time in the future, your HDD will die, sad, but true.
    Excellent advice. And the web is full of horror stories of folks who unfortunately *thought* RAID was a backup. I suggest at least 3 backups, preferably stored in at least two different places (e.g., fire/theft if all in the same place). And some if not all of these backups should be NOT connected to anything except when being used to update backups.

  7. #22
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Hi Oggy..

    At the moment Iam only Backing up on one HD, and Computer.Now space is going another HD needed soon.I was hoping SSD were going to be lowered in price, but Like GaryM said earlier; You can wait for tech to move on and prices drop..But never buy anything for years in doing so. Iam well aware even just having 2 HDS is risky. Plan TO HAVE 5 back ups (Yes I trust technology that much..) at the end( Plus keep my CDS fOR "ULTIMATE BACK UP"....

    Iam in The U.K. and based in the midlands..So a few hours drive like you I can get to Dealers.It was just bout 5 Years ago I had 2 "On my doorstep"...But things change...gotta go" the extra Mile" (or two..)

    Please let me Know what you demo and what you finally get. I've Just got another 600 CDS to Rip.....

    By the way you said when you asked the dealer regarding Dac Vs renderer you didn't tell us the answer.I assume it was just a standalone streamer.........??

  8. #23
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by daleyb View Post
    Hi Oggy..

    At the moment Iam only Backing up on one HD, and Computer.Now space is going another HD needed soon.I was hoping SSD were going to be lowered in price, but Like GaryM said earlier; You can wait for tech to move on and prices drop..But never buy anything for years in doing so. Iam well aware even just having 2 HDS is risky. Plan TO HAVE 5 back ups (Yes I trust technology that much..) at the end( Plus keep my CDS fOR "ULTIMATE BACK UP"....

    Iam in The U.K. and based in the midlands..So a few hours drive like you I can get to Dealers.It was just bout 5 Years ago I had 2 "On my doorstep"...But things change...gotta go" the extra Mile" (or two..)

    Please let me Know what you demo and what you finally get. I've Just got another 600 CDS to Rip.....

    By the way you said when you asked the dealer regarding Dac Vs renderer you didn't tell us the answer.I assume it was just a standalone streamer.........??
    Well there are certainly some good dealers around the Midlands area, but as mville has sadly noted, possibly some less than stellar. As a customer I vote with my wallet to a shop who gives good service and recommendations to friends / colleagues, and a vote with my feet away from those who do not.

    I have to sell before I can buy, so am in a bit of a dilemma of what to do. If a solution sounds worse than my CD player, I would hardly ever use it, so to me, that is a waste of money. If it's a similar level, then the convenience factor takes over - I haven't ever had any real love for CDs - the writing is simply too small!

    At its best, the sound is stunning and would easily ouperform my good, but bettered CD player, which would be rather nice! I see no point in investing in another CD player.

    So, get a £130 Dragonfly to get me going or something around the level where you are looking. There are numerous DACs available, Chord sound very good, or a renderer -one that matches my CD player, or one that doesn't!

    You noticed that I didn't tell the answer! In simple terms that a good quality DAC will sound "very good", but some computer environments are noisier than others and you may not hear it at the optimum. Suggested I bring my laptop and try for myself, but thought I may prefer the renderer, based on my previous buying choices. I suggested that I didn't want to buy based on my previous purchases, but what was the best solution now. So, back to "listen for yourself".

    In simple terms that you can take the greatest / latest DAC and it will sound good on the end of almost anything, but it takes (costs!) more to hear it at its optimum. A well sorted integrated renderer without the latest and greatest technology can outperform a non-optimised SOTA DAC costing more.

    Ripping the CDs is the easy bit!!


    *He would go the renderer route, which him being young and tech savvy, suprised me.
    Last edited by Oggy; 03-21-2016 at 04:42 PM.

  9. #24
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    One of the reasons I love my squeezebox setup is that the computer is completely separated from the players (no physical connection, unrelated to server computer's soundcard, if any, noise from server computer, etc.). The server with music and server software is in a back cabinet and connected to the router via ethernet. The Player is next to stereo and simply receives the audio (the digital bits) from the sever via ethernet or wifi (I use ethernet, but either works well). And the players can provide this data to any DAC I choose. The other reason I love it is that it is NOT using DLNA.
    Last edited by garym; 03-21-2016 at 07:25 PM.

  10. #25
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by garym View Post
    One of the reasons I love my squeezebox setup is that the computer is completely separated from the players (no physical connection, unrelated to server computer's soundcard, if any, noise from server computer, etc.). The server with music and server software is in a back cabinet and connected to the router via ethernet. The Player is next to stereo and simply receives the audio (the digital bits) from the sever via ethernet or wifi (I use ethernet, but either works well). And the players can provide this data to any DAC I choose. The other reason I love it is that it is NOT using DLNA.

    Hi Gary, I've picked up a Touch a couple of times, but for some reason didn't purchase it. Think Slim Devices / Logitech had some great products, and were ahead of the market.

    You still see a lot of love for their products, and rightly so.

    In a lot of ways a Squeezebox actually makes a lot more sense than a cheap DAC, it is still being supported and linear power supplies are available.
    Last edited by Oggy; 03-22-2016 at 05:36 AM.

  11. #26

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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    I'm in the UK and have to say my experience of Hi-Fi dealers is somewhat similar to that of garym in the US. I have been astounded at the lack of knowledge and by the lies I have been fed in this whole area. One dealer in the South of England even tried to tell me that streaming audio was illegal!!

    What is important to remember is that once you have your audio library, you do not need to spend thousands to get up and running, especially if you don't need a multi-room setup. The technology is still in it's infancy, so I suggest it is not a good idea to spend a lot of money on hardware, that may quickly become out-dated/redundant.

    There are many sites/forums where audio enthusiasts share their experiences of building cheap Home Theater PC/Backup Servers. A HTPC combined with a decent DAC, I believe is an excellent, cost effective way to get started, as you learn the basics and discover just what is possible.
    It depends here on what exactly the dealer was talking about. If he said that ripping CDs in the UK is illegal, then he is quite correct. See here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...in-the-UK.html
    If this is what he was saying then perhaps he should be considered a good dealer who is up to date with the law.

  12. #27
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    It should be noted there has never been a legal case about personal ripping, and there never will.

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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    Hi Gary, I've picked up a Touch a couple of times, but for some reason didn't purchase it. Think Slim Devices / Logitech had some great products, and were ahead of the market.

    You still see a lot of love for their products, and rightly so.

    In a lot of ways a Squeezebox actually makes a lot more sense than a cheap DAC, it is still being supported and linear power supplies are available.
    Yes, Squeezeboxes/Slimdevices were ahead of their time and Logitech really didn't know what to do with them after they purchased the company. Quite a shame. Although that said, a dedicated user group with some very clever folks have kept the ecosystem going in terms of both software and hardware. The open-source nature of much of the software has "saved" it. The server software (LMS) is oddly in the best shape ever, with significant improvements (and this is 3 to 4 years after Logitech quit making/selling squeezebox hardware).

    And yes, the DAC in the TOUCH is actually quite good. I run one via its internal DAC into analog intputs of a stereo. In another location I use a Touch via S/PDIF digital out into a Benchmark DAC I. In my main system I use a Logitech "Transporter" which I'm quite fond of.

  14. #29
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by flourbag81 View Post
    It depends here on what exactly the dealer was talking about. If he said that ripping CDs in the UK is illegal, then he is quite correct. See here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...in-the-UK.html
    If this is what he was saying then perhaps he should be considered a good dealer who is up to date with the law.
    My post was not refer to ripping CDs or copyright infringement laws. I was referring to what the dealer said, that streaming audio was illegal.

  15. #30
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    Re: Naming/paths/Comps/Folders

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    So, get a £130 Dragonfly to get me going or something around the level where you are looking. There are numerous DACs available, Chord sound very good, or a renderer -one that matches my CD player, or one that doesn't.
    Good idea. Especially when you can obtain Audioquest Dragonfly v.1.0 DACs for £50 as I did, on ebay.

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