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Thread: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

  1. #31
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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    I only have the 2011 remasters. These are gapless tracks, as are many of pink floyd's albums. Do you ever get a pop at beginning of song on non-gapless album tracks.

  2. #32

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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by garym View Post
    I only have the 2011 remasters. These are gapless tracks, as are many of pink floyd's albums. Do you ever get a pop at beginning of song on non-gapless album tracks.
    The thing with The Wall is that Comfortably Numb was the last song on side 3 of the LP, so there is a gap between that and the next song. I can hear it fade to no sound before that dreaded "pop." (About 2 seconds of silence.) But NO "pop" when I play The Show Must Go On.

    Anyway, I just played my entire Pink Floyd collection as a test (as those are the only albums that readily come to mind that are gapless) using iTunes and every track started normally. No "pops." Even the 2011 Wall had no pops. I have a hard time hearing any actual silence at the end of the 2011 remaster of Comfortably Numb, whereas the 1992 remaster you can CLEARLY hear the silence.

    So then I played my entire Rush collection (14 or so albums) using iTunes. Those are all non-gapless and I didn't heard any pops at the beginning of any track. All sounded fine. I do not recall hearing anything prior to when I discoverd this with Comforatbly Numb. I know that if I did, it would have been something I certainly would have noted.

    I'm starting to think my analysis of how AccurateRip verifes tracks might be wrong, based on the accuraterip entry I read in the hydrogenaudio wiki. But again, I am NO expert in this stuff, and any analysis I may have is based simply on ideas of how I think things should, or might, work. So this is making me wonder even more as to why the 2 "pops" at the end of my Rip1 and Rip2 of Comfortably Numb are different sounding. I don't think it's any player, because when I "snipped" the last few hundreths of a second off there was no "pop" for any player.

    I'd love to somehow upload the last 4 or 5 seconds of each version so you can actually hear it, but, again, I don't want to get in trouble.

    Maybe my 2 rips of the Wall that AccuarateRip is verifying as accurate are somehow inherently different. The only reason I think they are the same CD is because the confidence, CRC ARv2 values, and DiscIDs all came back the same for EVERY track. (See my original post.) The 2011 remaster has different CRC and confidence values (as well as a different DiscID) than my original 2 rips.

    I wish I had access to the CD I did the first rip from. I might try to get a copy from eBay or something. I'm just wondering how much money is finding an answer to this "pop" issue worth. lol!

  3. #33
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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    My 2cents: Time to move forward and get back to enjoying the music. You've done everything humanly possible to confirm bit perfect rips. Any other discussion is purely theoretic. At this point you're basically talking to yourself.

    Enjoy the music and have a great holiday season and happy new year.

  4. #34
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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    ... and to complicate things further, the 1992 US Re-Issue appears to be mastered with Pre-Emphasis. Are you sure you haven't used SoX to de-emphasize the CD at some point?

  5. #35

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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    ... and to complicate things further, the 1992 US Re-Issue appears to be mastered with Pre-Emphasis. Are you sure you haven't used SoX to de-emphasize the CD at some point?
    I ripped all the CDs with iTunes, but different versions of iTunes. Just ripped with the Apple Lossless setting. I'm not sure what Pre-Emphasis is?

    For the record the first rip came from a copy with barcode: 0 7464-68519-2 0, and the second rip came from a copy with barcode: 7 2438 31243-2 9. (All US releases.) The first rip was done with iTunes v 7.1.1.5 in May, 2007, and the second rip with iTunes v 11.0.2.26.

    Also, as I mentioned, I managed to find 2 library copies of the second CD I originally ripped and I hear that same "pop" or "click" (whatever it is) when I PLAY the CD, not rip it.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by mathmat; 12-22-2014 at 12:52 PM.

  6. #36

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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Continuation of above post:

    I just read that newer versions of iTunes apply de-emphasis when playing and ripping CDs. Could that explain why the "clicks" or pops" (or whatever they are) sound differently for the 2 rips? Interesting. Thanks for the input, mville. Wondering if this is the answer. If it is, then if I obtained a copy of the original ripped CD, I would expect the "click" to sound the same as the 2nd copy. Hmm. (This is, of course, if the 1992 remaster does have pre-emphasis.

    And thank you, garym, for the Holiday wishes. I wish you a Happy Holiday season and I have some other questions that I'll post in other forums that I'm hoping you'll give feedback on.

  7. #37
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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathmat View Post
    I managed to find 2 library copies of the second CD I originally ripped and I hear that same "pop" or "click" (whatever it is) when I PLAY the CD, not rip it.
    ... and does it pop/click in players other than iTunes, e.g. does it pop/click in a standalone CD player?

    In my opinion (as a Sound Engineer/IT Tech), iTunes is a poor piece of software. I would not use it as a media player and I certainly wouldn't rip with it. I would ditch it if I could but I have an 160GB iPod Classic. I look forward to the day that an affordable portable player supporting flac appears on the market, then I would say goodbye to Apple (and mp3) for good.

  8. #38

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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    ... and does it pop/click in players other than iTunes, e.g. does it pop/click in a standalone CD player?

    In my opinion (as a Sound Engineer/IT Tech), iTunes is a poor piece of software. I would not use it as a media player and I certainly wouldn't rip with it. I would ditch it if I could but I have an 160GB iPod Classic. I look forward to the day that an affordable portable player supporting flac appears on the market, then I would say goodbye to Apple (and mp3) for good.
    It only pops/clicks whenI play it in a playlist in iTunes (or if I uncheck all the following songs.) VLC gives the same result (when the tracks are played in isolation) Also in my iPod Classic and 5th Generation Touch (when played, again, in a playlist by itself.)

    The pop/click occurs when the track ends and the screen is "refreshing" if you will. For example, on my iPod, as the screen goes back to the home screen, that's when I hear it. I burned the track to a CD (a one track CD) and played it in my car and heard it. Again, the pop/click sounds different for the 2 rips. I checked the Pink Floyd Archives and both CDs came from the sme remaster (but different pressing plants), and all have identical peak levels.

    Also, when I "snip" the last 3/100ths of a second off the end of each rip so there is still some silence at the end of each track and then play it in iTunes or VLC, I don't hear it. (That suggests it's not the player.) And as I mentioned, the 2 library CDs (which are the sane CD as my 2nd rip), when I play the track in isolation (not ripped, but directly from the CD) I hear it. It's some sort of "glitch" or the first few 100ths of a second of the next track. I tend to think it's a "glitch" or mastering error as a louder and different sounding pop/click (the one from my first rip) would contain more information from the following track as would the 2nd rip with a softer and different sounding pop. Hence the following tracks would have different lengths, albeit by maybe 2/100ths of a second or less. And that would suggest that they both would NOt come back as Accurate, but, of course, they did come back as Accurate! So that's why I think mastering glitch. Again, I may be wrong.

    98% (or something like that) of my ALAC rips with iTunes have come back as Accurate. I'm happy with that level, as most of the bad tracks are songs I don't listen to. And I use iTunes because I listen to my music exclusively in my car with my iPod so I need to use it. It's just the pop/click sounds different from the 2 rips from 2 different copies which is something I'm very curious about since both CD Rips came back as accurate. So that made me wonder how 2 different sounding tracks both came back as Accurate? I put an explanation in a previous post as to how Accurate Rip verifes CD Rips, but that was just an idea. I don't think AR does checksums, because if I rip a CD as ALAC or WAV, then all tracks will give different checksums, yet the 2 rips will both come back as Accurate. I'm thinking that since on my rips there is about 2 or 3 seconds of silence at the end of Comfortably Numb that AccurateRip somehow stops "reading" the track when it reaches 2 or so seconds of silence because that would indicate that the track is over. I may be completely wrong, though.

    I don't think it's the players that are causing this, given its's happening consistently across multiple players. (Same pop/click sound for each rip EVERY time I use any player.) And I don't think it's pre-emphasis. I think this is inherent to the discs. If I can get a copy of the first CD I ripped for really cheap (under $10) I could determine with more certainty what's happening.

    I'm not so concerned about my music being Accurate at this point (although that is still a huge part and I obviously want it as Accurate) but rather how AccurateRip verifies as Accurate 2 different sounding tracks. I'm the type who, when I come across a problem, especially a techinical issue, I like to be able to understand it and get an answer. Given you're a sound engineer I think you're my best hope now.

    I'm just trying to understand what's happening here and how this works...

    Thanks, mville, for your input. I apreciate all of it.

    P.S. I uderstand Apple stopped making the Classic, and they're selling for crazy amounts on eBay. I think they will discontinue the Touch shortly as well. Most people use Pandora and all and I don't think people buy too many songs from Amazon or iTunes anymore. Not to mention CDs are really hard to find. I had to go to 5 Targets/Walmarts to get the 2011 Wall! It seems HDTracks are the future for audiophoiles, but I doubt there will be a portable player to play them. It's disappointing as everything seems to be headed in a streaming direction. 90% of people don't care about sound quality so they're happy to stream using their phones, in the process using lots of data and battery life.
    Last edited by mathmat; 12-23-2014 at 11:25 AM.

  9. #39
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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathmat View Post
    It only pops/clicks whenI play it in a playlist in iTunes (or if I uncheck all the following songs.) VLC gives the same result (when the tracks are played in isolation)
    What I am trying to determine is whether the original 1992 US Re-Issue has the pop/click. If you put CD2 into a standalone CD player (not a PC, too many variables there) and you hear the pop/click then it is probably a pressing issue or mastering problem and there is little you can do.

    If there is no pop/click and you rip to flac with dBpoweramp, I expect the resulting flac to also be pop/click free.
    Last edited by mville; 12-24-2014 at 06:50 AM.

  10. #40

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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    What I am trying to determine is whether the original 1992 US Re-Issue has the pop/click. If you put CD2 into a standalone CD player (not a PC, too many variables there) and you hear the pop/click then it is probably a pressing issue or mastering problem and there is little you can do.

    If there is no pop/click and you rip to flac with dBpoweramp, I expect the resulting flac to also be pop/click free.
    Hi mvilee. Happy Holidays to you!

    Just to reiterate, the first CD I ripped had barcode: 0 7464-68519-2 0 (1997 Columbia USA) and the second CD had barcode: 7243 8 31243 2 9 (2000 Capitol USA). Both, according to the Pink Floyd Archives are the 1992 Doug Sax Remaster, albeit different pressings from different pressing plants.

    Now I don't have access to the first CD (the one with the slightly louder pop) but as I mentioned I was able to find 2 copies in the local library system of the second CD (2000 issue.)

    I went ahead and tried both library CDs in my CD player (technically blu-ray player) and I was able to create a playlist so that I could play Comfortably Numb in isolation. And on BOTH CDs I heard the SAME click/pop as I did when I played Comfortably Numb from those same CDs (in isolation in a playlist) through iTunes and VLC. And this is the same sounding click/pop as my original rip of the 2000 CD which was done a few years ago. I am convinced it is part of the CD. Now whether it is a "glitch" or the first hundreths of a second of the next song (The Show Must Go On) I don't know. If I had to guess, I'd say it was the beginning of the next song.

    Now because the first rip (from the 1997 issue) has the click in the same EXACT location as on the other CD issue makes me think it is inherent in that CD as well, They are, after all, the same remaster with identical peak levels (according to the Pink Floyd Archives.) Not to mention all the tracks from BOTH pressings each have IDENTICAL track lengths to the thousandth of a second.

    Now since the click/pop sounds different in each rip is what is making me wonder. Keep in mind that I used PerfectTUNES to check both rips and the results came back identical. Every track from Rip1 (1997) had the same ARv2 CRC value as well as the same confidence value (and the same Disc ID) as Rip2 (2000). The only difference was the offsets. Also, just as a reminder, the click/pop occurs at the extreme end of the track. You hear it as the track ends and the screen refreshes. (Or on the CD player, as the song ends and the screen goes back to the playlist.)

    I don't know why the click/pops sound different. Keep in mind it's not a very big difference, but it's clear that it's NOT the same sound. I don't know if the 1997 issue is slightly different than the 2000, but I doubt it since the AccurateRip results came back identical. My theory, which I can only confirm once I get a copy of the 1997 CD, is that the click/pop will sound the same as the 2000 issue and different than my rip of the 1997 CD. The reason for the different sounding clicks in my 2 rips? I think that when the reading/ripping head was moving from Comfortably Numb to the next track on the 1997 CD Rip some error occurred. But regardless of why this error occcurred (if it is an error or just a difference in the pressings of the same remaster) I don't underdstand the AccurateRip results. That's what's intriguing me.

    How could AccurateRip give identical results for 2 CDs where one track clearly sounds different?

    (This is simply a "trying to understand what's happening" question, as I am intrigued and fascinated by the concept of AccurateRip.)

    Thanks, and Happy Holidays to all!

  11. #41
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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathmat View Post
    I went ahead and tried both library CDs in my CD player (technically blu-ray player) and I was able to create a playlist so that I could play Comfortably Numb in isolation. And on BOTH CDs I heard the SAME click/pop
    It definitely looks like a problem (pressing or mastering) with those CDs and if so, any rip will also contain the pop/click.

    Post no. 3 in this thread from Spoon also suggests this and explains why accuraterip treats the different CD releases as the same.

    I too suspect that the digital audio contained in both releases is identical, but that the track start and end points (i.e. the edit points when ripped) are slightly different so giving different pop/clicks on playback. However, without having definitive knowledge of how these CDs were manufactured, any reasons given here is pure speculation.

  12. #42

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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by mville View Post
    It definitely looks like a problem (pressing or mastering) with those CDs and if so, any rip will also contain the pop/click.

    Post no. 3 in this thread from Spoon also suggests this and explains why accuraterip treats the different CD releases as the same.

    I too suspect that the digital audio contained in both releases is identical, but that the track start and end points (i.e. the edit points when ripped) are slightly different so giving different pop/clicks on playback. However, without having definitive knowledge of how these CDs were manufactured, any reasons given here is pure speculation.
    I think I have a better understanding of what is hapening now. Thank you. The fact that the offsets were diffferent suggests the cause of the different sounding clicks/pops. From what I understand, different pressings of the same CD can have different offsets, which, though musically identical, can have slightly different start/stop times for the corresponding tracks. So Track 6 on a particulat pressing can start, for example, 2/100ths of a second later than the same track on a different pressing of that identical CD. But AccurateRip takes this into account when it does its comparison. Is that a correct understanding?

    Also, when I do a PerfectTUNES check and I get a particular "pressing offset" value, is that the offset that is inherent in the CD, or does that take the offset of the CD drive into account? For example, let's say my CD drive has an offset of +150 and my CD has an offset of -50, what offset value would PerfectTUNES return? Again, I'm new to all this and trying to learn the basics of how it all works. Forgive me if the questions are simple.

    Finally, if I rip the same physical CD with 2 different computers, will the pressing offset values be the same after running them through PerfectTunes? I ask this because I ripped the same physical CD with 2 different computers and got different offset values. (Again, I used iTunes, but different versions.)

    Thanks!

  13. #43
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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    dBpoweramp corrects for drive offsets, iTunes does not, so any drive offset is like a pressing offset.

  14. #44
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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    My guess is that your pop is actually an ID3v2 metadata tag at the end of your file. And that your player is wrongly trying to play that tag as if it was music. This normally sounds like a pop or a blip of static. The exact sound of the tag depends on what is actually in the tag. So for example two instances of the same track with identical perfect accurate rip music content might have different meta data tags (e.g. different album art images) and so they might pop differently. Solution is to change your player..

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    Re: Another AccurateRip/PefectTUNES question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoon View Post
    dBpoweramp corrects for drive offsets, iTunes does not, so any drive offset is like a pressing offset.
    Thanks, Spoon. This explains a lot conceptually and also explains a lot of the data I've been getting with AccurateRip.

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