How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

[haggis999]

I am at the beginning of my journey into the world of streamed music. My first decision has been to purchase dBpoweramp to rip my collection of about 1000 classical CDs to FLAC files. I have also chosen MP3Tag for any subsequent reorganisation and correction of metadata tags. I will be giving a fair bit of thought to establishing a coherent tagging policy that will provide the most convenient and flexible searching mechanism for my classical music.

All this effort will go to waste if I mistakenly buy a streamer that is unable to exploit this metadata. I am planning to purchase an audiophile quality streamer, with the Naim NDX being my initial focus of attention, partly due to an enthusiastic review in Gramophone magazine. However, no one in the Southampton area appears to have an NDX on demo so perhaps the good people on this forum can provide some guidance (I may also post a question or two on the Naim forum in due course).

Are there any nStream users here who have experience of using it for classical music? I don't really care about nStream's ability to harvest metadata as I would be using dBpoweramp for this purpose. However, can nStream make use of all the tags that dBpoweramp (and MP3Tag) understand? Just as an example, does nStream make it easy to list all concertos (or all symphonies, piano sonatas, etc) or all works by a specified composer or performer?

BTW, I cannot try nStream for myself as I do not currently possess an iPhone, iPod or iPad. However, an excellent streamer control app could persuade me...

David

[Spoon]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

The ability to browse by such tags is down to the UPnP server, not the player, you should look at Asset UPnP (created by ourselves) as it will read and create the browse trees for all supported Tags in dBpoweramp.

[haggis999]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

Hi Spoon,
I have a technical background, which should help me climb the streamed music learning curve fairly quickly but I am currently standing very close to the bottom of that curve. You appear to be telling me that I need something called a UPnP server. Before we take that any further, be aware that my vision is to have a NAS device attached to a streamer such as the Naim NDX. My computer should not be involved in the playing of music. Any server software would therefore have to run on the NAS.

Do you first choose a suitable NAS and then choose whatever UPnP software will run on that NAS or is it more important to select the best UPnP software and then choose a compatible NAS box? I believe most NAS boxes run Linux. Some Googling on this topic tells me that Windows Home Server might have offered an alternative route but WHS will soon be dumped by Microsoft.

To get back to my original question, are you saying that nStream will offer a totally different user experience when used with different UPnP servers?

David

[Spoon]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

We cannot give an unbiased answer to your question.

I try to be impartial as possible...the UPnP server can dictate the whole browsing experience, if you choose a certain NAS then you might only have 2 choices of UPnP server...and there are some very poor ones out there.

Asset can run on a PC connected to a NAS (such as netbook) or any Windows machine, after all a NAS is basically a computer...

[Porcus]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

All this effort will go to waste if I mistakenly buy a streamer that is unable to exploit this metadata. I am planning to purchase an audiophile quality streamer, with the Naim NDX being my initial focus of attention, partly due to an enthusiastic review in Gramophone magazine.

That one costs £3000 ...

You may of course be willing to pay for a simple-to-use single-box solution, but don't be fooled by the reviews when it comes to sound quality. It likely sounds excellent, but nowadays that is not too hard to achieve when you play back from computer.

My own setup is a server in a different room, and then everything is controlled by a totally fanless computer with an SSD drive (2nd hand at £90). Then all you need is a workable USB-Audio solution with a decent DAC. The Behringer UCA202 has a loyal following, and at that price tag you can buy it unheard. If you ever test anything against it, make sure to do a proper double-blind test, as most of us would likely be fooled by everything else's higher price tag. http://nwavguy.blogspot.no/2011/02/b...02-review.html

(Myself I am using speakers with digital-only input and a large FIFO buffer immunizing against jitter and that sort of stuff. I have tried a couple of £20 USB-to-spdif interfaces, and the only differences I have spot, are on certain wordlength/sampling rate combinations that some of them simply do not handle without stuttering. On CD format output, there is likely no improvement available at any cost, unless you are unfortunate enough to have your digital chain spitting electrical (analogue!) noise on the SPDIF.)

And look: how are you supposed to handle a thousand CDs with a push-button remote? There is no way I would do without a qwerty keyboard :-)

[haggis999]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

...the UPnP server can dictate the whole browsing experience...

So roughly what proportion of the user experience is provided by the control app? Do most apps like Naim's nStream provide the ability to select and sort any tagging data the UPnP server chooses to provide or do they impose their own metadata limitations?

David

[haggis999]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

That one costs £3000 ... You may of course be willing to pay for a simple-to-use single-box solution ... And look: how are you supposed to handle a thousand CDs with a push-button remote? There is no way I would do without a qwerty keyboard :-)

Naim offers some single box solutions but the NDX is not one of them. My understanding is that it simply takes the place of a CD player in a traditional hi-fi system. I am treading cautiously here and appreciate your comments about other possible solutions at a lower price.

My interest in the user control end of a streaming system is driven by the hope that some such apps would realise the potential of modern technology to greatly simplify the handling of a thousand or more CDs, and by the fear that some such apps do not provide a genuine improvement over my current procedure of lifting a CD off the shelf and stuffing it into my CD player!

David

[garym]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

I have about 10,000 CDs and made the move to digital music several years ago. A few of my thoughts.

1. First and foremost, rip once and rip right. You're ahead of the game here, as you've found dbpa. I rip to FLAC with dpba and use it or mp3tag for additional tagging needs. Getting your tags right is particularly challenging with classical music. (I also create a mirror version of mp3 files for use on iphones/ipads.) The ripping/tagging is critical no matter what hardware/method you use.

2. Then you need a network streamer to take your own music (or streams from the internet) to your stereo/speakers. There is not likely a good reason to spend $$$$ on a network streamer, particularly when a bit-perfect lower cost streamer can feed a good quality DAC via S/PDIF or Optical. Audiophile magazines are full of lots of misinformation, including things that are flat out wrong! Remember, they're in the business of selling ads to high end manufacturers that want to convince you that $6,000 USB cables are needed to provide perfect data transfer. Ridiculous of course!

I have a whole-house system of Squeezebox players (Transporter, Touch, Boom Radio, etc.). Unfortunately, they've stopped production (stupidy, based on Logitech's incompetence), but they provide a good example of how things *can* work. My SqueezeBox Transporter (the higher end model) feeds my preamp/amp via balanced analog outs (the internal Transporter DAC is quite good). In another system, a Squeezebox Touch (costs about $300!) feeds a Benchmark DAC I (via S/PDIF). And I have bedside radios, etc. that are also network streamers. All these things can work separately or together (I can play different things to each player or sync multiple players together to play exactly the same thing). (by the way, synching is not trivial with digital music players....this is not the same as having multiple speakers connected to same source.) My network players are connected to my router via either ethernet, WIFI, or "ethernet over powerline" connectors. My transporter handles up to 24/96 files, the Touch also 24/96 (although there is a software mod that allows 24/192 files). My system handles gapless perfectly as well.

It is also important that your system handle GAPLESS (not all DLNA systems do). I believe ASSET does, but may depend on the player as well.

3. You need a server to provide the music to your network streamer(s). I use a headless computer (no keyboard, no mouse, no display) as a server. It runs a fedora linux OS. It holds all my music files. It sits in a back cabinet, away from my listening space. It is connected to my router via ethernet. It serves music to ALL my players. There are many options here. I could just as easily have a small netbook running windows with USB HDD attached holding my music. And I could run my server software on this computer. Key is there is a computer or NAS (which is just a small headless computer) that is powerful enough to run your server software.

In addition to my own music, my music server software also allows me to access internet radio, music services (pandora, spotify, etc.).

4. I control the server (and all my players) using either an app on my iphone (ipeng) or ipad (ipeng for ipad or Squeezepad). Or I can control everything from a webbrowser on *any* computer on my network (e.g., my laptop).

5. I rip files on my local computer, then after happy with tags, etc. I move them (over my network) to my music server. Keeping appropriate backups is important too. I have at least 3 complete backups, stored in 3 different physical locations (and not plugged in to anything except when being updated).

Overall, my system runs 24/7 and simply works, month after month without even the need for a reboot. It is easy for me to use and for my wife to use. She has no clue how any of this works. All she knows is that she picks up her phone, selects the app, and can browse by artist, album, genre, or search for something specific, or choose an internet radio, or even choose various random play options.

If I was to choose a DLNA approach, I'd definitely use Spoon's ASSET. DLNA can be badly implemented, so Spoon's approach is very welcome. And as Porcus noted, if you don't need synching, you can even use a small fanless PC as your player (and server for that matter). Lots of options that can work well, but no matter what you first need securely ripped, well tagged music. Good luck and don't hesitate to ask more questions. I was where you are about 5 or 6 years ago.

[haggis999]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

Hi Gary,
Many thanks, as always, for a very helpful reply. Like you, my system will have to pass the test of a resolutely non-technical wife!

I was already aware that gapless playback was an essential requirement, particularly for classical music, but am unclear which device and/or software in the chain controls this capability. Some clarification on this point would be appreciated.

Following a quick search, my understanding is that DLNA is effectively a subset of UPnP. Is DNLA vs UPnP therefore just another choice when it comes to music servers or do other components make use of either protocol?

David

[Spoon]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

All UPnP servers are gapless, you need a player (such as Linn) with UPnP extensions to hold the current playlist on the player for it to be gapless.

>what proportion of the user experience is provided by the control app?

All, the server defines the browse trees.

[garym]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

Hi Gary,
Many thanks, as always, for a very helpful reply. Like you, my system will have to pass the test of a resolutely non-technical wife!

I was already aware that gapless playback was an essential requirement, particularly for classical music, but am unclear which device and/or software in the chain controls this capability. Some clarification on this point would be appreciated.

Following a quick search, my understanding is that DLNA is effectively a subset of UPnP. Is DNLA vs UPnP therefore just another choice when it comes to music servers or do other components make use of either protocol?

David

David, I *think* DLNA and UpnP are related but not the same thing. But I've never actually used DLNA/UpnP for streaming anything so I'm not the best person to ask about the specifics of its use. I think that with DLNA/UpnP there are 3 important components (a SERVER, a RENDERER, and a CONTROL point). But not experienced enough to intelligently answer any real questions about their use and where the availability of gapless, playlists, etc. are buried.

[haggis999]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

>what proportion of the user experience is provided by the control app?<

All, the server defines the browse trees.

By 'control app', I meant the front end software such as nStream - in which case, should your answer not have been 'None, the server defines the browse trees'?

EDIT: Alternatively, are you suggesting that the browse trees are a minor part of the user experience?

David

[Spoon]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

Sorry my reply should have been:

none, the server defines the browse trees

[haggis999]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

... I've never actually used DLNA/UpnP for streaming anything ...

Gary,
I assumed from Spoon's first response to my OP that a UPnP server was an essential link in the chain. What is it in your Linux server that takes the place of UPnP or DNLA software?

David

[garym]

Re: How well does the Naim nStream app handle classical-oriented metadata tags?

Gary,
I assumed from Spoon's first response to my OP that a UPnP server was an essential link in the chain. What is it in your Linux server that takes the place of UPnP or DNLA software?

David

I'm not using upnp/dlna at all. My server is Logitech Media Server (LMS) (current name), that evolved from Squeezebox Server (from the days before the company was acquired from Slimdevices). It uses its own database, server approaoch, etc. that is different from upnp. Nice because it does gapless, perfect synching, allows all sorts of useful 3rd party plugins for doing interesting things, and has a lot of community support. A year ago I would have highly recommended the squeezebox approach, but with their discontinuation of the hardware, I can't recommend any longer unless you are willing to tinker a bit. Although there is a hardcore group of supporters making replacement players that can work with LMS. See: forums.slimdevices.com

Here's some tests on the quality of the digital signals from various squeezebox players (end of story: they come out great in testing).

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97950-MEASUREMENTS-Some-Squeezebox-numbers-to-consider

Also, see Vortexbox (that's the headless server I use for holding my music files and serving them to my various squeezebox players). They also offer a Squeezebox Hardware replacement (the Vamp). See

http://vortexbox.org/forum.php

p.s. Even though discontinued, I have enough hardware to last years and don't plan on changing to a different system. It all works too well for me now.