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Thread: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes rip?

  1. #1
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    is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes rip?

    Suppose I rip "La Bamba" in dbpoweramp and it reports as "error" or "insecure". And I clean the cd and get same result. If I hear an audible problem on the CD then of course I have to get a new CD to rip, but .......

    questions:

    - if it plays without audible flaws does that practically mean, usually they were interpolated out (or however you express that) by the driver (or was it by dbpoweramp if I checked the interpolation box) or by some fluke?

    - if a cd isn't visibly trashed and sounds fine, is the error/insecure thing likely to be only a couple seconds on the song (and is there a way to know the magnitude of the errors)?

    -if I go rip it in itunes secure mode and it gets check-mark all-ok, is what I have different from my insecure/error dbpoweramp rip?...is it better?...inferior?...i.e.,SHOULD i go rip in itunes if I get a error/insecure from dbpoweramp...or is the itunes rip basically the same as dbpoweramp (see error, same interpolation) ?

  2. #2
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    If a rip is insecure it will be the same as iTunes (except that iTunes does not report the error).

  3. #3
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    I can't answer your question, but it occurred to me that you may be ripping to a lossy file (mp3, aac?) given that itunes can't do FLAC. If you are ripping to lossless (eg ALAC), then ignore this comment.

    If you are ripping to lossy, you should reconsider. Why go to all the trouble to get good rips, good metadata, etc. with LOSSY files when it is just as easy to do with lossless. I ripped thousands of CDs (over 200,000 tracks) all to mp3 in the old days. It was all a waste as I've since been on a quest to rip everything to FLAC (and I'm up to about 70,000 tracks). With lossless files I can then convert to whatever I want in the future without reripping. And I do convert to lossy mp3 to have a version of my files I use on my iThings....

  4. #4
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    Quote Originally Posted by audiojim View Post
    - if it plays without audible flaws does that practically mean, usually they were interpolated out (or however you express that) by the driver (or was it by dbpoweramp if I checked the interpolation box) or by some fluke?
    Normally you should not check the interpolation box. If not checked, the drive will do the job. If checked, dBpoweramp will do the job -- and I have yet to hear a drive which interpolates worse than dBp. dBpoweramp's interpolation is a last-resort feature.

    As for your question by and large:
    The problem about non-secure ripping software is that they don't attempt to detect nor correct errors. Typically that works as letting the drive interpolate any issues. A secure ripper (like dBpoweramp) might do either of the following:
    - notice the same error, and re-read until OK
    - notice the same error, and re-read without succeeding (the result may be different from the insecure one, but that's like shaking the bucket once more before drawing lots)
    - notice an error, and give up. dBpoweramp does so in some modes; then you can switch mode and hope to get the previous point

    Now if your CD has multiple issues, a secure ripper might correct some of them.

  5. #5
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoon View Post
    If a rip is insecure it will be the same as iTunes (except that iTunes does not report the error).
    That was my key question.

    [GaryM: I am ripping to AIFF (except that I did some in WAV but the meta was screwed up so I converted to AIFF), except for downloads from the web (bandcamp, hd tracks, some classical place) where I am leaving it in the Flac i downloaded it in. ]

  6. #6
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    "Normally you should not check the interpolation box. If not checked, the drive will do the job. If checked, dBpoweramp will do the job -- and I have yet to hear a drive which interpolates worse than dBp. dBpoweramp's interpolation is a last-resort feature."

    The poster says in effect that dbpoweramp's interpolation is no better than whatever a drive does, and implies that dbpoweramp isn't very good at it ('worse"). Why do you say that?...just curious

    Does Mr Spoon recommending checking the interpolation box? ..and why/why not?

    I did that after chris at computeraudiophile.com said to....

  7. #7
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    As much as I like dBpoweramp (I've paid for the Reference), I do not appreciate every feature. With bad frames, the interpolation option does not do a good job. It has been discussed here on many occations (example).
    (Spoon, is it so that it interpolates the entire frame?)

    Of course, it won't hurt if you rip twice and compare (by ear!) -- then judge for yourself. And here are two hints:
    (1) put the erroneous discs aside in a separate pile. When you get the chance to rip them in a different drive, do so. Different drives read troublesome frames slightly different, and you might be lucky on a second attempt, even if the second drive is not really any 'better' than the first.
    (2) CUETools maintains a database that can be used to repair your rip if (i) someone has already submitted the rip (like for AccurateRip) and (ii) the errors are very few. You might need to rip with cuesheet to have it working. I've had a handful of rips saved that way.

  8. #8
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    Yes the drive is better if it does interpolation its self, because it is more accurate.

  9. #9
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoon View Post
    Yes the drive is better if it does interpolation its self, because it is more accurate.
    Since, apparently, some drives do interpolation on their own, is it true that interpolation on dbpoweramp only comes into play if there was no interpolation by the drive OR if it was done so poorly that dbpa sees a need for more interpolation, in which case what harm is there in checking the box ?...?...presumably you can't have the drive interpolate correctly and then dbpa also interpolate. Can you turn off the interpolation function on a drive or is it automatic ?

    by the way, Chris at computeraudiophile.com says to check the box and "the interpolated frame is more likely to sound like the actual recording from an undamaged disc than a pop or a tick would sound without an interpolated frame..". Chris seems to ignore the option of relying on the drive for interpolation. He is a big guru of this stuff and probably drives a lot of business to this website which he highly recommends !




    My OTHER Questions :

    1) Does the log file tell you that the rip was a) with interpolation box checked, and b) if interpolation occurred?

    2) in any case, is it true that interpolation will ONLY have ocurred (if it did occur) on frames that were reported as a) secure, b) secure - warning, c) insecure, d ) error [all of those or some?]...and NEVER on something that was AR confidence X?

    3) let's say interpolation was not done well; how does that likely manifest itself -- are we talking about a dropout for one second, a click , or some weird sounding continuation of a musical note that shouldn;t be there?....
    Last edited by audiojim; 03-06-2012 at 11:17 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    Quote Originally Posted by audiojim View Post
    2) in any case, is it true that interpolation will ONLY have ocurred (if it did occur) on frames that were reported as a) secure, b) secure - warning, c) insecure, d ) error [all of those or some?]...and NEVER on something that was AR confidence X?
    dBpoweramp does a 'burst' rip and verifies against AccurateRip, before starting to do any re-reading. The burst rip will eat anything the drive feeds it, without question.
    That means, if someone else has ripped with interpolation and gotten the same result, you cannot guarantee that 'NEVER' you are asking for. However, that would not (up to the negligible risk of two different rips having the same checksum) happen due to scratches disks, unless the very same disc was ripped twice; two scratched disks have different scratches. It could however happen due to a manufactoring error on the CD; these are likely to be the same on two discs, and if ripped on the same drive, they could in principle submit the same interpolated rip. This would be no different than actually taking the new CD out of the jewel case and playing it in a CD player. And yes, new CDs sometimes have manufactoring errors. (All CDs have C1 errors. If I remember correctly, the standard prescribes a maximum of 220 per second, which is an awful lot. At http://www.blantonemusic.com/red_boo..._mastering.htm a master house boasts of less than 14 a minute. That was C1. C2 ... should be none, but some do have them.)

    If you experience that all tracks but one report as, say, AR (15) and one single track is reported as AR(1), this might be the case. (It may have other causes too, I think there were some issues with the last track on the CD in a few old versions of the ExactAudioCopy tool; http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=77766 .)


    3) let's say interpolation was not done well; how does that likely manifest itself -- are we talking about a dropout for one second, a click , or some weird sounding continuation of a musical note that shouldn;t be there?....
    Usually a click or a pop. On really bad discs (say, a handful of my 6000 rips, most of which were acquired 2nd-hand), a repeated scratching sound.
    Last edited by Porcus; 03-06-2012 at 02:44 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    "2) in any case, is it true that interpolation will ONLY have ocurred (if it did occur) on frames that were reported as a) secure, b) secure - warning, c) insecure, d ) error [all of those or some?]...and NEVER on something that was AR confidence X?"

    So , in the absence of a manufacturing error, is this a true statement?....just to be clear here....

    what about my other questions....somebody...

  12. #12
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    Correct

  13. #13
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    thanks...so please weigh in on these still pending questions:

    1) Since, apparently, some drives do interpolation on their own, is it true that interpolation on dbpoweramp only comes into play if there was no interpolation by the drive OR if it was done so poorly that dbpa sees a need for more interpolation, in which case what harm is there in checking the box ?...?...presumably you can't have the drive interpolate correctly and then dbpa also interpolate. Can you turn off the interpolation function on a drive or is it automatic ?

    2) Does the log file tell you that the rip was a) with interpolation box checked, and b) if interpolation occurred? So far as I can tell it does neither -- correct?

  14. #14
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    If the check box is checked, then for any sector 2352 bytes will be interpolated if an error is detected, this is regardless of what the CD drive is doing.

    2) Not sure.

  15. #15
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    Re: is dbpoweramp rip with error or insecure different to and/or inferior to itunes r

    "2) Not sure"

    Is Spoon joking about not knowing this, not that his/her posts are normally laden with gobs of humor?. I didn't see this on the log, so far as I could tell, but maybe I am missing it somehow.......

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