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Thread: How do I do meta data tagging right?

  1. #1

    How do I do meta data tagging right?

    I'd be very thankful if spoon or some of the experienced classical music rippers could take time to answer my questions. I try to state them in a comprehensible way.

    Old story, same whining: I want to start ripping a classical music library of ~3000 CDs, I want to rip only once and not have to use multiple programs to tinker with every CD to get the metadata I need. I will use flac as the audio format.

    Problems that arose:
    The information from any database is neither enough precise nor consistent. I guess this is not fixable. Therefore I need good tag editor.

    1. Tried: Every track I rip should have the same tags included. I therefore ticked all the tags I'm interested in (under Options -> Meta Data & ID Tag Options -> Write ID Tags). Some which don't exist as default options I added as custom tags ("Custom & Fixed Value Tags"). All these tags together I will refer to as "active tags". For every CD I insert I want to fill some of these active tags with information from the online databases and some by hand. Therefore I need a tag editor where all these active tags with their corresponding entries are shown - also if some of them will remain empty for some albums (eg the Chorus tags in symphonic work).
    Arising Problem: There are four places in the software to review tags: On the top in the menu bar, in the main window, in the bottom middle bar the middle tag "IDMeta", and when clicking Review Meta Data. I don't really understand what the difference between the first three "editors" is. And none of them seems to be able show all "active tags":
    • The popup window that comes up when clicking "Review Metadata" only shows a subset of the metadata provided by the online databases (eg conductor, Catalog * etc. is missing). Is there a way to show all the information available from each one? If not - why not?
    • In the main window only a small subset of all tags can be selected as columns. Not even all standard tags are available. This would be the ideal place to allow displaying all active tags.
    • In the top bar there's another random subset of tags, with no customizability as far as I can see. I guess this is supposed to be the editor for the album-wide tags, however even this would be inconsistent: there's an artist tag, which should be used track specific, but no Label tag which is for the entire album.
    • In the tag editor bottom middle bar, tab "IDMeta", I think all of the "Write ID Tags" are shown if they have an entry in the chosen online database. "Custom Tags" are shown regardless of whether they have an entry or not. Also here I'd just like to see all active tags.


    It can't be true that there are 4 editors but none of them allows me to view all "active tags" automatically without each time adding some manually. That would be crazy.
    One solution would be to add all tags of interest as custom tags, however then no information would be filled in from the online databases, counteracting this great feature of dbPoweramp.

    2. Tried: I want to be able to copy the content of some tags to other tags in order to be more flexible with player software: Copy the content of the artist tag into the performer tag, the orchestra tag into band and ensemble tag, etc.. I thought of doing this in the DSP->ID Tag Processing -> Map.
    Arising problem: Custom tags don't show up as an option for mapping tags. Also some normal tags (= tags that are available and activated in the Meta Data & ID Tags options, section "Write ID Tags") such as orchestra, if they also don't show up in the IDMeta Tab (bottom middle). Is there a way to make all "active tags" available?


    3. Tried: I want to be able to combine the information of some tags to another tag: the album artist tag should contain the the combined information from conductor, orchestra, soloists, chorus.
    Arising Problem: Can't find any way to do something like this. Is that possible at all? If not, can it be added in a new release?


    Sorry for the long post. Thanks for your help in advance.
    Last edited by classicRip; 12-08-2011 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: How do I do meta data tagging right?

    Quote Originally Posted by classicRip View Post
    Old story, same whining: I want to start ripping a classical music library of ~3000 CDs, I want to rip only once and not have to use multiple programs to tinker with every CD to get the metadata I need. I will use flac as the audio format.
    ......
    The information from any database is neither enough precise nor consistent. I guess this is not fixable. Therefore I need good tag editor.
    I'll just be direct.....you can't do all that in dBpoweramp. As you mentioned early on, you need a good tag editor.

    I don't say this to be flip or dismissive.....I am also very particular about the metadata I want, standardizing how it's used, and especially, being uber-thorough. (I've been known to spend days tracking down the metadata for some old opera ripped from vinyl!) So I can tell you from experience, you're better off just letting dBpoweramp do the ripping and basic tagging, then using a sophisticated editor to customize, standardize, and complete your tags.

  3. #3
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    Re: How do I do meta data tagging right?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrodyBoy View Post
    I'll just be direct.....you can't do all that in dBpoweramp. As you mentioned early on, you need a good tag editor.

    I don't say this to be flip or dismissive.....I am also very particular about the metadata I want, standardizing how it's used, and especially, being uber-thorough. (I've been known to spend days tracking down the metadata for some old opera ripped from vinyl!) So I can tell you from experience, you're better off just letting dBpoweramp do the ripping and basic tagging, then using a sophisticated editor to customize, standardize, and complete your tags.
    Once ripped, some (maybe all) of what you want to do (combining fields based on other fields, etc.) can be done with mp3tag (yes, it does FLAC and much more). It is a very sophisticated tagging program. I too am very meticulous about my tags and I find I can do everything I want with the combination of dbpa and mp3tag. And of course, as you will discover, tagging classical music is 100 times more complicated than pop music (and the databases are less likely to automatically create the tag info that you want).

  4. #4

    Re: How do I do meta data tagging right?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrodyBoy View Post
    I'll just be direct.....you can't do all that in dBpoweramp. As you mentioned early on, you need a good tag editor.

    I don't say this to be flip or dismissive.....I am also very particular about the metadata I want, standardizing how it's used, and especially, being uber-thorough. (I've been known to spend days tracking down the metadata for some old opera ripped from vinyl!) So I can tell you from experience, you're better off just letting dBpoweramp do the ripping and basic tagging, then using a sophisticated editor to customize, standardize, and complete your tags.
    Thanks guys for your answers! OK I can't do all that in dbp, can I do any? I agree - for points 2 & 3 I'll use mp3tag, as it's fairly easy to do this in a batch mode for many albums.
    However point 1 - having a saved profile of metadata tags (eg the "active tags"), which will show all the specified tags in at least one of the tag editors for every CD I insert - is there no way to do this? It would be painful to do this in mp3tag, as I would have to go through every CD manually again, add new fields, check others,...

    If not possible is it planned for a future release? I mean it's all there, it should just take a couple lines of code specifying which tags to offer when right clicking the columns of the main window. I think the strategy with this kind of software should be to set defaults, that will work for the majority of users, but keep the possibility of individualization (see JRiver MediaJukebox as a comme il faut player). I'm also willing to do some hacks, if that would do it.

  5. #5
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    Re: How do I do meta data tagging right?

    Quote Originally Posted by classicRip View Post
    Thanks guys for your answers! OK I can't do all that in dbp, can I do any? I agree - for points 2 & 3 I'll use mp3tag, as it's fairly easy to do this in a batch mode for many albums.
    However point 1 - having a saved profile of metadata tags (eg the "active tags"), which will show all the specified tags in at least one of the tag editors for every CD I insert - is there no way to do this? It would be painful to do this in mp3tag, as I would have to go through every CD manually again, add new fields, check others,...

    If not possible is it planned for a future release? I mean it's all there, it should just take a couple lines of code specifying which tags to offer when right clicking the columns of the main window. I think the strategy with this kind of software should be to set defaults, that will work for the majority of users, but keep the possibility of individualization (see JRiver MediaJukebox as a comme il faut player). I'm also willing to do some hacks, if that would do it.
    not sure. Spoon will have to answer this one.

  6. #6
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    Re: How do I do meta data tagging right?

    Quote Originally Posted by classicRip View Post
    Thanks guys for your answers! OK I can't do all that in dbp, can I do any? I agree - for points 2 & 3 I'll use mp3tag, as it's fairly easy to do this in a batch mode for many albums.
    However point 1 - having a saved profile of metadata tags (eg the "active tags"), which will show all the specified tags in at least one of the tag editors for every CD I insert - is there no way to do this? It would be painful to do this in mp3tag, as I would have to go through every CD manually again, add new fields, check others,...
    Maybe I'm not clear what you're asking for here, because it seems pretty straightforward to set up a profile (or better yet, multiple profiles) that adds all the tag fields you want. Of course, whether they are filled correctly will depend on the online databases. But at least if all the tag fields are already there, it's easy to look at them in mp3tag and see which are correct, which are empty, etc.

    Not sure why you think it would be painful in mp3tag....you could create an action that adds all the fields you want, especially all those dynamic tags you want to create. Further, you can access a lot of online data through mp3tag.

    As you noted above, in dBp you can scroll through and review or edit these in the IDMeta tab:

    In the tag editor bottom middle bar, tab "IDMeta", I think all of the "Write ID Tags" are shown if they have an entry in the chosen online database. "Custom Tags" are shown regardless of whether they have an entry or not. Also here I'd just like to see all active tags.
    If what you're asking for is a way to view only a subset of metadata in that tab, I don't believe that's possible. The whole point of it seems to be the place where you see ALL fields.
    Last edited by BrodyBoy; 12-09-2011 at 02:24 PM.

  7. #7

    Re: How do I do meta data tagging right?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrodyBoy View Post
    Maybe I'm not clear what you're asking for here, because it seems pretty straightforward to set up a profile (or better yet, multiple profiles) that adds all the tag fields you want. Of course, whether they are filled correctly will depend on the online databases. But at least if all the tag fields are already there, it's easy to look at them in mp3tag and see which are correct, which are empty, etc.
    Really? Ok that's great, I guess I missed the prettystraightforwardness.
    I may have found a solution after playing around a bit - what confused me was the following: I figured one would create a personal profile via Options -> MetaData & ID Tag Options -> Custom & Fixed Values. But this results in every custom tag overwriting the information from the metadata databases. If you leave the value empty, the tag will remain empty when pulling information from the databases. However now I saw, that you can open "review metadata" and click the database you want to use, which will fill all the custom tags with information (if they're present in the db). Is this the strategy you are referring to?
    The custom tags will be written into the correct ID3v2 frame as long as they're spelled correctly, right? Do you know where I can find the information, which tag names are mapped to which ID3v2 frame by dbP?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrodyBoy View Post
    As you noted above, in dBp you can scroll through and review or edit these in the IDMeta tab:

    If what you're asking for is a way to view only a subset of metadata in that tab, I don't believe that's possible. The whole point of it seems to be the place where you see ALL fields.
    You're right, I want to see ALL fields, but I think you're only partially right that the IDMeta tab does that. This tab only shows the summary over all tracks (often <various something>). I want to be able to review all tags for each track individually. Ideally I'd like to be able to customize once which tags will be shown for this kind of editing. That is not possible with IDMeta, right? Do you know if it's possible any other way? To me the columns of the main window seem to be the natural place to do it.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by classicRip; 12-14-2011 at 12:43 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: How do I do meta data tagging right?

    > Do you know where I can find the information, which tag names are mapped to which ID3v2 frame by dbP?

    To get exact frames you would have to have a file tagged by dBpoweramp, then load into something like mp3tag

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