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Thread: Really confused with conflicting rips

  1. #1

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    Unhappy Really confused with conflicting rips

    I'm new to this so apologies in advance if there is a thread that already exists for this.

    I'm trying to rip a CD and am currently in my second attempt.

    The first attempt, 11 out of the 12 tracks were ripped with 'Secure' (and X AR was greyed out). The 12 and final track however, was re-ripping at approx 4500 frames...this seemed excessive. The settings for my first attempt were for a secure rip (but not ultra). My CD is quite rare so there was no Accurip data to compare.

    The second attempt, I decided to use the ultra secure settings. Interestingly, this time it had to re-rip track 6 with about 20 frames but ended up with the same CRC as the first rip...so I assume this is correct (this meant the rip status for this track was (i Secure). I am now on the 7th track and it has also re-ripped with approx 600 frames.

    I believe my blu-ray drive has C2 pointers (I even created the recommended C2 pointer disk to check). My drive also has an offset (which I calculated when I first installed dbpoweramp).

    My blu-ray drive is the following: Samsung TSSTcorp DVDWBD SH-B123A

    I also have a Pioneer DVD-RW DVR-218L which I could use if anyone recommends it instead.

    The CD itself looks to be in very good condition, basically clear of scratches. If I look closely, in a certain light, it does seem to have a non uniform look to it though...like part of it has been affected by water. I have no idea if this is what usually happens with CD's but I thought it might be helpful.

  2. #2
    Da Man Spoon's Avatar
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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Issues such as this are called Manufacturing defects, if you have a 2nd different drive it can confirm the results (by giving back the same CRC).

  3. #3

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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Do you mean the drive can have manufacturing defects or the CD? I'm listening to the problem tracks right now and I can't fault the sound (even though that doesn't mean there are not issues). I also just went to a store and ran the CD through a cleaner/polisher but that hasn't improved anything (I think I've actually made it worse....though visually it looks a lot better).

    Is there any settings I should focus on or should I continue trying to rip until I get a good CRC? I was also wondering if having 4500 frames is ridiculous or I should persevere and try my luck?

    For what it is worth, I think your program is fantastic. It is wonderfully designed and very impressive with its abilities (I've purchased it if you were wondering...worth every penny).

    ****Edit: Had another listen to the problem tracks and I can definitely hear a 'tick tick ticking' sound. I assume this is what you mean by defect? Or could it be the scratches etc? Lastly, is it possible to rectify by doing a massive secure scan?
    Last edited by webrafts; 03-14-2012 at 06:10 AM.

  4. #4
    Da Man Spoon's Avatar
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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    CD

    4500 frames is the drive not being able to read large portions, a different drive might read without a single frame...

  5. #5
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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Quote Originally Posted by webrafts View Post
    Is there any settings I should focus on or should I continue trying to rip until I get a good CRC? I was also wondering if having 4500 frames is ridiculous or I should persevere and try my luck?
    At least two strategies: (1) try a different drive, as Spoon suggests. Doesn't even have to be a better one. Just another shot. (2) Yes, re-rip 4500 frames. Leave it overnight. (Does wear your drive, of course -- my attitude is, that's what drives are for, and I haven't really worn out more than one in 7000 CDs.)

  6. #6

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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Thanks for the info. Another interesting thing I noticed is that if I select the ultra secure rip, I am getting frames of around 25000...but if I only do 'secure' I am getting (in the latest case) around 3500. I think I remember reading on the forum that the ultra secure (or one of its sub settings) can actually make it worse (e.g. more frames to re-rip) because it is picking up false positives. Is this correct? Or is the 'secure' rip just hiding the ice-berg that 'ultra secure' would find?

  7. #7
    Da Man Spoon's Avatar
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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Correct

  8. #8

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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Just to be clear, you're referring to my statement that ultra secure settings can lead to false positives? Thanks for the help.

  9. #9
    Da Man Spoon's Avatar
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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Each pass might pick up an error which was not there before (as there is a fine line sometimes between reading and not), or to put another way, even with a disc which had no errors, if you had 1 million passes on it, I am sure it might come up with an error for one of the passes. That in its self is not an issues, the secure ripping stage should sort it out.

  10. #10
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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    I've found that CD-only drives on average often read better than DVD drives. Seems likely that rule of thumb also applies to CD-only vs. BD drives.

    Brendan

  11. #11

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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Cheers. I think I found the real issue. I went and got the CD professionally cleaned, and it turns out I have fine scratches on the foil side of the CD...and in a few cases I can see, what I think is known as 'pin holes' when held up to the light. From the little I have researched, it seems that no amount of ultra secure ripping will fix it...unless someone here has any suggestions? Thanks again for the help.

  12. #12

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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    Okay...a follow-up just in case anyone was wondering how I went after finding out that the foil side was scratched. I have no idea if it really did anything or if it was just luck, but I read that locating and applying whiteboard marker to the scratches and then covering with two layers of masking tape may help (added on the foil side of course). I am a little skeptical (or more likely very skeptical) that this can really help in my case since I was under the impression that the 1's and 0's exist on the foil...so once it is scratched...it is gone for good.

    Regardless...

    With the added weight of the tape and off balancing it would create, I slowed the drive down to the minimum speed of 4x. I then did a drive read cache detection and dbpoweramp suggested that I didn't have one...thus it was disabled. I had the ultra secure settings as Minimum 2, Maximum 6 and End after 2 with c2 error pointers enabled.

    I was then able to rip the troubled track (track 11) twice and get the same CRC back twice. I am under the impression this is a good thing.

    Here is the rip log info that I thought was relevant:

    Track 11:

    Ripping with drive 'E: [TSSTcorp - DVDWBD SH-B123A ]', Drive offset: 6, Overread Lead-in/out: No
    AccurateRip: Active, Using C2: Yes, Cache: None, FUA Cache Invalidate: No
    Pass 1 Drive Speed: 4, Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
    Ultra:: Vary Drive Speed: No, Min Passes: 2, Max Passes: 6, Finish After Clean Passes: 2
    Bad Sector Re-rip:: Drive Speed: 4, Maximum Re-reads: 700

    The other track that was an issue was track 12 which I attempted without ultra secure and it seemed to copy well (can't hear anything wrong). I am wondering if I got lucky because ever since, trying with ultra secure brings up a load of frames to re-rip. To note is I had the cache at 1024 KB since I hadn't tested the drive to see if it had one (until after I finally did track 11). Not sure if that does anything.

    Track 12:

    Ripping with drive 'E: [TSSTcorp - DVDWBD SH-B123A ]', Drive offset: 6, Overread Lead-in/out: No
    AccurateRip: Active, Using C2: Yes, Cache: 1024 KB, FUA Cache Invalidate: No
    Pass 1 Drive Speed: 4, Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
    Bad Sector Re-rip:: Drive Speed: 4, Maximum Re-reads: 60


    The only other thing I can report is that I find that some of the tracks end at the start of the next track. What I mean is, for example track 11, there will be about half to one second of sound left (e.g. one last drum beat or guitar string)...but instead of happening at the last half to one second on track 11, it will occur right at the start on track 12. Is this common with soundtracks on CD's or is it a setting in dbpoweramp (e.g. lead in/lead out or offset?).


    ****To bhoar: You might notice I'm still using my bluray drive...but it seems to be working as well if not better than my pioneer dvd drive. I'll have to double check by comparing.
    Last edited by webrafts; 03-15-2012 at 07:27 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: Really confused with conflicting rips

    The plastic of prerecorded CD's are pressed from the glass master on their *top* side, then a foil layer is applied. After that, all but the cheapest (I mean super-cheapest) CD-Rs apply one or more layers of sealant and/or labeling to the top side. Granted, CD-R manufacturing is more complicated, but the super-thing top-layer problem can occur with them. I have some super cheap CD-Rs where it appears no sealant or a super-thin layer of sealant can be found on the top and those have particularly easily damaged tops.

    By manually sealing (even w/ white out & tape), you have given the laser something to focus on, I suppose.

    Brendan

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